Frustrated with Linux, can it really be this user un-friendly?

LordSplodge · 23 Dec 2007 at 10:25

likwid said:
Why do you keep suggesting Gentoo to Linux beginners?
:

He said he wants to learn Linux, not use Linux.

I did the same as him mucking about in the big distros then I moved to Debian and then Gentoo. I learned a load more very quickly on the last two.

Mucking about in KDE or Gnome is not learning Linux...

likwid · 23 Dec 2007 at 10:36

He wants to learn to use a Linux operating system.

I'm sorry but the attitude you're demonstrating is what scares so many new users from Linux. You're endorsing one of the most difficult distros to install to a linux novice when in fact all he wants is a to install an operating system. He started the thread by saying he'd had many problems getting Ubuntu to work, so suggesting Gentoo really isn't helpful.

LordSplodge · 23 Dec 2007 at 10:44

likwid said:
He wants to learn to use a Linux operating system.

I'm sorry but the attitude you're demonstrating is what scares so many new users from Linux. You're endorsing one of the most difficult distros to install to a linux novice when in fact all he wants is a to install an operating system. He started the thread by saying he'd had many problems getting Ubuntu to work, so suggesting Gentoo really isn't helpful.

Learn to use a Linux OS or Learn to use the GUI? If he can use Windows with any degree of competence then using KDE/Gnome et al is going to be a peace of cake. The problem he had was with drivers. By advocating Gentoo and following their instructions from the Internet he could have built up a system that worked (or had a wale of time time trying!. Most of the time building Gentoo consists of watching it download and build packages off the Internet.

If he wants to get comfortable with some of the lower depths of Linux whilst having a nice shiny GUI then sure use a pre built distro like Unbuntu (it's great by the way).

Anyway, if new users to linux are scared by a bit of command line stuff then they aren't really ready for Linux.

swinnie · 23 Dec 2007 at 10:46

One of the best ways to learn something is dive in, but how did you learn to swim? Working your way up. Try different distributions!

likwid · 23 Dec 2007 at 10:51

Anyway, if new users to linux are scared by a bit of command line stuff then they aren't really ready for Linux.

Why not? Again you make Linux sound like this elitist thing when the Open Source community are trying to do the exact opposite. Are you saying a Linux operating system that 'just works' is a bad thing? Are users who hope for such a thing 'not ready for linux'?

Many people, myself included, enjoy using the command line, but most people don't want to go there. That's not a bad thing.

janesssssy · 23 Dec 2007 at 11:46

The reason i will never go 100% linux is because windows in my opinion is "better"!
Now, i know that this statmenmt isnt exactly everyones opinion. but hear me out....

In windows I use a a NAS using NDAS software to mount the hard drive, these are very common. Ximentia produced this and even they cant get it working in an easy state for linux, there are guides but untill they can be installed for dummies like; Next, Next i will stay with the d0ze.

This is true to loads of apps, unitill this can be sorted out windows will be the only major OS for a very long time. Honestly, why would you use linux and type masses of code just to get your £300 Nvidia card working? (plus a million of other stuff) i will never understand :confused:

* Please note i am using MINT linux on a secondary system to "play around"

swinnie · 23 Dec 2007 at 12:15

janesssssy said:
The reason i will never go 100% linux is because windows in my opinion is "better"!
Now, i know that this statmenmt isnt exactly everyones opinion. but hear me out....

The only reason that Windows is 'better' is because it just works.

BUT I think if Windows didn't exist and then Windows came in like Linux, free, open source etc I think we would be in a similar boat.

GarethDW · 23 Dec 2007 at 15:55

janesssssy said:
The reason i will never go 100% linux is because windows in my opinion is "better"!
Now, i know that this statmenmt isnt exactly everyones opinion. but hear me out....

Sounds as though you're more comfortable with Windows than you are with Linux, and are therefore saying that Windows is better overall because you're more familiar with how things are done a la Microsoft. Not saying that's wrong, but just that it's a bit one-sided... I find English a better language than Spanish, but that's only cause I don't speak much Spanish.

It's good to see that you're playing around with Linux... if you stick at it then you'll get to understand more of how things are done in the Unix-style rather than the Windows method. Once you're more comfortable with Linux, I'd be interested to see if your opinions change.

Personally, I don't think either system has everything right... Windows does some things in a daft way, imo, but then again so does Linux.

dodgem · 24 Dec 2007 at 02:58

Nice to see some down-to-earth comments in here from likwid! There seems to be a portion of the linux community that don't actually want linux to be easily accessable by everyone, and almost believe that linux isn't actually an operating system that you should use, just one that you should spend time and effort getting to work. Once you've got it working, the next logical step is to find a more difficult distro and get that one to work :rolleyes:

Personally, i use Ubuntu because for the most part, it does just work. Initially i installed it because i was developing a browser based database for my business and it's far easier to find decent software to do this for free in linux than it is in windows. Then i realised that i found linux far more comfortable to use than windows (i have a constant paranoia in windows that something's about to go wrong, or that i'll need to reinstall in a few months).

Now i'm at the point where i only actually boot into windows to play games (since ati cards aren't very well supported atm and i don't have the knowledge or patience to try and make it work). I would like to become more adept at using the terminal, but unfortuneately atm it's mostly a case of copy pasting solutions found in forums to fix any problems i do have. I daresay that installing a "more difficult" distro would help me learn, and i'll probably do that on another partition when i have time on my hands. I've been using MS products since early versions of MSDOS so it's jsut in my nature to want to know the ins and outs. But there are a lot of people out there that aren't interested in doing that, and that certainly isn't to say that they shouldn't use linux.

Imo, linux is a better operating system than windows in terms of it's design, and the community as a whole (particularly Ubuntu) is allowing more and more people to discover it which can only be a good thing surely...

.walls · 26 Dec 2007 at 15:56

LordSplodge said:
He said he wants to learn Linux, not use Linux.

I did the same as him mucking about in the big distros then I moved to Debian and then Gentoo. I learned a load more very quickly on the last two.

Mucking about in KDE or Gnome is not learning Linux...

I both agree and disagree with you on this point - yes Gentoo is *great* for learning linux - *but* - you have to be comfortable with the OS to start with.

A new user who goes straight to Gentoo without ever using the OS before is going to give up very quickly; unless he/she has the patience of a saint... Most people want a working OS to get used to how it works before going to the deep end.

Compiling software, kernels etc is **** easy - but do you remember the first time you did it? Barely knowing what make or even gcc is? Yes, you were a n00b too at one point and as you said - you started off on one of the big distros, got comfortable, moved to Debian and *then* moved to Gentoo.

LordSplodge said:
Anyway, if new users to linux are scared by a bit of command line stuff then they aren't really ready for Linux.

That's just elitist nonsense.

leezer3 · 26 Dec 2007 at 19:23

Linux is an operating system, like any other, period. Whether or not the command line gets used is up to the user, there is no requirement to use it at all. Sometimes it works better that way, but just about anything can be done these days with the GUIs in the big distros.
Personally, I couldn't do without the terminal, but that doesn't mean I should force others to use it. Equally, I use Gnome, but I'm not going after KDE or Enlightenment users; Its really not necessary and only serves to push the Linux cause back.

The only reason Linux isn't ready for the bigtime yet is market share, and the fact that almost every computer user will have learnt on Windows. Paradoxical really- The only way to get mainstream acceptance is to have mainstream usage.

-Leezer-

Vimes · 28 Dec 2007 at 10:01

SiriusB said:
This isn't entirely true any more. Taking Ubuntu as an example [it is what I use at home] installing software is so easy it makes Window's look slow and clunky.

Open Terminal:

Code:

sudo apt-get install [i]package-name[/i]

There, that was easy. Within a few minutes your software will be downloaded, installed, configured and ready to use.

It is easy, when you know how

For me that was the most frustrating part - having to trawl forums and search for ages, maybe I'm just not that good, to find out how to install, set-up and run, for example, a game that I wanted...

OTTD

http://www.openttd.org/

...it took me ages to figure out how to get it installed, even longer to get the sound to work (that was major problem) and finally I gave up at creating a 'shortcut' to it on the desktop.

I have been using a PC since DOS 3 and I'm reasonably adept with the software / hardware structure but with Linux I have really struggled with using various distros when things don't work as I expected, or was able to resolve using the cl interface.

I did settle with using Ubuntu for no other reason except that it does seem to be the easiest to get going and there is a 'newbie' section to their forum.

However using the word 'easiest' is relative to the absolute nightmare of hours and hours of endless frustration that I have when trying other distros to achieve a similar level of functionality that I have taken for granted with Windows.

I often visit DistroWatch to see what is happening on the Linux front and will, one day, give it a try again. But for now Windows, which does have its problems, is the most familiar for me to work with and after my many attempts with Linux I now appreciate it even more

leezer3 · 28 Dec 2007 at 11:43

Search the Ubuntu forums- there really ought to be a prebuilt deb for OTTD

(Are you sure its not in the repos, its definitely in the Mandriva ones?)

90% of the problem is things not working as expected from a Windows point of view

Linux works in a different way, you've gotta remember that. Trying to do things in the Windows way is only going to result in frustration; Your perception needs to move away from what you currently consider to be right, and open your mind

-Leezer-

zetec452 · 28 Dec 2007 at 11:51

The ubuntu wiki (https://wiki.ubuntu.com) has a wealth of information.

Vimes · 28 Dec 2007 at 15:27

leezer3 said:
Search the Ubuntu forums- there really ought to be a prebuilt deb for OTTD (Are you sure its not in the repos, its definitely in the Mandriva ones?)

90% of the problem is things not working as expected from a Windows point of view
Linux works in a different way, you've gotta remember that. Trying to do things in the Windows way is only going to result in frustration; Your perception needs to move away from what you currently consider to be right, and open your mind

-Leezer-

You could be right, in that the OTTD could be in the repos, however when I first wanted the game installed it took me long enough to figure out what the repos were and then how to successfully use them...!!!

I do take your point about the differences in how Linux expects the user to do things to that of Windows, however I do find using the cli to do some tasks akin to that of an alchemist and find it difficult to come to terms with an OS that, on occasion, can expect you to do it. I just don't find it, as yet, intuitive to use.

The ubuntu wiki (https://wiki.ubuntu.com) has a wealth of information.

Thanks for posting that link, most useful

pallys · 29 Dec 2007 at 12:30

I use IBM AIX (a derivative of UNIX at work everyday) as well as Windows.

From my own experience I can say Linux is heading in the right direction for market share, but that will only come with Usability of the OS. People forget what an Operating System is, its just a hardware abstraction Layer. Your not supposed to constantly mess with it. Its supposed to be a tool for you to be productive elsewhere. Sadly a lot of time is still spent on Linux fixing problems and getting hardware and software to work.

I use Linux as a file server at home, but nothing more, because thats all its good at. It's still not ready for the average person to use as a desktop machine. Only Ubuntu comes close, but still has a long way to go to match the Usability of Microsoft, which is understandable really considering they spend millions upon millions on Usability Testing.

I agree with the thread title, it is user-unfriendly as a desktop machine.

However its great as a Server OS.

Sad but true.

growse · 29 Dec 2007 at 18:50

pallys said:
I use IBM AIX (a derivative of UNIX at work everyday) as well as Windows.

From my own experience I can say Linux is heading in the right direction for market share, but that will only come with Usability of the OS. People forget what an Operating System is, its just a hardware abstraction Layer. Your not supposed to constantly mess with it. Its supposed to be a tool for you to be productive elsewhere. Sadly a lot of time is still spent on Linux fixing problems and getting hardware and software to work.

I use Linux as a file server at home, but nothing more, because thats all its good at. It's still not ready for the average person to use as a desktop machine. Only Ubuntu comes close, but still has a long way to go to match the Usability of Microsoft, which is understandable really considering they spend millions upon millions on Usability Testing.

I agree with the thread title, it is user-unfriendly as a desktop machine.

However its great as a Server OS.

Sad but true.

Completely disagree.

Linux (lets take Ubuntu as an example distro) is extremely usable, as long as you have supported hardware. It's a well known fact that Windows has much wider hardware support, and most problems that I've seen with using Linux has been with getting hardware to actually work. I've actually moved friends / family's PCs from Windows to Ubuntu, and in the vast majority of cases the users have actually found Ubuntu easier to use. In some cases, hardware hasn't been supported and Linux hasn't been an option, which is unfortunate. I'd be willing to bet money that I'm not the only one who has found this.

Most people seem to say / think / feel that Windows is easier to use, because Windows is what they are used to. Microsoft may spend millions on Windows, but bits of it are still laid out in a mind-numbingly stupid way. I know my way round both and wouldn't say either is more or less usable in general, but as I said above, to beginners, my experience is that basic things are easier to do on Ubunutu. I imagine that part of the Mac's appeal is that basic things are even easier to do, which is why so many people feel comfortable using a Mac. They're a good example of spending millions on usability and for the most part, getting it right.

MikeTimbers · 30 Dec 2007 at 10:53

leezer3 said:
Plenty of experience with MS products, thanks

Tell me for instance ... or one incredibly simple problem- There's no way to mount network drives in a folder, they have to have a drive letter.

-Leezer-

Open the parent folder within which you want the network drive to appear. Click New, Shortcut, enter the UNC (//servername/sharename), give it a name and you're done. No drive letter, but a "folder" you can open to get to the network drive. I'll admit it doesn't show in the folder view, though.

FWIW, with over 18 years as a qualified Unix engineer, I still don't like Linux. I'm only happy with these *nix systems when I'm using the terminal. The GUI irritates simply because I don't know it well enough and I've never yet seen a compelling reason to switch from Windows.

likwid · 30 Dec 2007 at 11:13

The GUI irritates simply because I don't know it well enough and I've never yet seen a compelling reason to switch from Windows.

So you don't like it because it's not Windows? That's fine, my mum's the same, and my flatmate who has a macbook pro but only runs Windows on it. no one is saying don't use Windows, just that there is an open source alternative available that is increasingly user friendly.

ps you were working as a 'Unix engineer' in 1989?

leezer3 · 30 Dec 2007 at 11:51

MikeTimbers said:
Open the parent folder within which you want the network drive to appear. Click New, Shortcut, enter the UNC (//servername/sharename), give it a name and you're done. No drive letter, but a "folder" you can open to get to the network drive. I'll admit it doesn't show in the folder view, though.

Seen that, and TBH its a horrific bodge.
I'd like to be able to use my drives as I do in Linux with everything mounted under the starting folder /media. With a shortcut, I'm afraid it's hit and miss as to whether programs recognise things. Such a simple tweak, but would make things so much better

A GUI is a GUI TBQH. Both my Windows and my Linux boxes are majorly customised; I'll post a screen from my main desktop when I get home on the 3rd- No longer looks anything like Windows, but I needed a mass of third party apps to achieve this

-Leezer-