Gains with small bottlenecks

[slim01]

Hey guys.
Bargain hunter here, it's Black Friday in China (11.11) and I've got the itch. Want to improve gaming fps a little.

Just wondering your thoughts on this - If there is no significant CPU bottleneck, is it still worth upgrading a cpu for slightly more fps, increase to 1% low, ddr4, smoothness +opening upgrade path?
-Have you ever done/experienced this?
-Did you actually notice gains/smoothness?
-What led you to your choice?

I'm considering building a future platform AMD 3600 on an x570 (Inc 32gb 3600 ram) for about £310. So that's all the potential benefits above for about £110 after I've sold my i7, mobo +ram.


-IMO the +£100 jump to 8c (3700x or 9700kf) isn't good 'bang for your buck'.
-x570 with good vrms are pricey, but in 2024 I can probs drop in a 16c/32t Zen3 for about £150 right?

My 4770k @ 4.6ghz rarely bottlenecks my gtx1080 (oc @ 2220mhz +850mem), so...
Yes I SHOULD get a £600 2080super AND a new cpu, but I think the current pricing of gpus is outrageous.
Usually I'd spend about £350 every 2-4 years; When a new gpu almost doubles performance. Today, even a £1000 (!) 2080ti would not get me 100% uplift.


So...
-£310 on a gpu and I'll get nothing.
-£600+ rtx2080super isn't great fps Incr.
-£600 on 9900k and ill get small fps and have to upgrade mobo again in 2023.
-Wait for ages until rtx2180 / gtx1280 and I won't get benefits (even if small) I want now.

This is my problem



P. S
Playing at 1440p and 4k.
-I rarely play at 1080p. I have a massive TV and I sit quite close to it so 4k makes a world of difference to me.
(even 2 or 3 frames @4k) is worth something to me atm.


Cheers in advance

 

[slim01]

Yeah the one included in the £310 above is a actually that exact asus.

I watched a few vids on the vrms, hardware unboxed guy almost catching all of the msi boards on fire at 110c+ The asus is about half the Temps of ALL the budget boards (feels crazy calling £180 mobos "budget").

Compared to UK £310 quid with a 3600 and 32gb ram is cheap... Still, I have never, ever spent more than £80 on a mobo, and always had good results overclocking.
Why do x570 boards START at about £170.


Yeah I thought about the fan but I'm using a 280mm aio on gpu anyway. Don't like having heat in my case. Not after I had a HTPC meltdown.

 

[slim01]

And yeah I'm not bothered about ray tracing. That's the kind of not really noticeable stuff I turn down to get 4k/60fps.

Is dlss any good though? That sounds like my kind of thing.


I'm actually looking at prices for gpus in the sale now.
I'll post some here for you guys to look at. Just seen a 2080ti for about half uk price = £680.

 

[slim01]

The X570 is the more premium range, in reality we should have the B550's out by now which would be much more reasonably priced, but as far as I'm aware they've been pushed back to next year.

I had seriously been considering moving to Zen 2 myself this year, but I've decided to put it off until the 4000 series launches in part due to the availability of good motherboards. MSI's B450 MAX boards are solid, but I wouldn't personally feel comfortable with the prospect of popping in a 12 core chip down the line. I'm also not sure I want to spend £200 + on a decent X570.

Yeah this is kind of where I am. If I was in UK I wouldn't be considering the extra £100 cost compared to here.

You rekkon intel will respond with anything next year? Are they even working on like a 5nm?

 

[slim01]

And you think b550 boards will support pci express 4.0?
Might want a nvm2 one day

And their vrms will handle a 12c/16t?

 

[slim01]

Yeah o

Honestly given what you've said, my first question would be "Do I NEED to upgrade anything?"

That same upgrade might work out cheaper in a year (or might not depending on the i7 value second hand moving up or down). Or graphics cards might become a bit more reasonable soon and the money could go towards that. Identify if you have a performance requirement or if you just want to modernise. If you want to get off DDR3 for instance that's a reasonable desire. If you just have the upgrade itch... Well that's fine too, but don't spend money if you'd regret it.

Yeah it's a question I'm asking now... Whether or not I'm wasting my time researching all this stuff and if I'm actually gonna buy it. Hence the post .

It's actually why I'm now looking at gpus as well...in for a penny in for a pound I guess. But as you've said, gpu prices may come down shortly. Do amd/nvidia have anything revealed for q1 2020? Like intels gpus? I'm deffo not holding out for intels gpus.

"Need" is a strong word... More like want, wanting some closer to 4k/60 or 1440p/60/ultra and not wanting to pass up a bargain.
Black Friday is pretty good in China, and I'm returning to UK next November so if I go all out maybe the time is now, and maybe selling at UK prices will cut potential losses anyway.

I was just thinking for about £100 cost I'd be getting
-MAYBE slightly better fps, lows and smoothness.
-upgradable platform.
-32gb ram, and ddr4 at that.

 

[slim01]

Intel isn't in a position to properly respond to AMD right now in my opinion, and given their roadmap I don't see it happening for at least a couple of years.

The B550's should have all the main features of the X570 (gen 4 pci-e etc), they'll just be more limited in terms of overclocking, which for AMD cpu's hardly matters as CPU oc'ing isn't that big of a deal. You get a lot more out of tweaking memory.

As for the VRM's, it'll vary board to board but I suspect we'll see some good improvements over the B450 lineup and a number of the boards should be more than adequate for 12c processors.

Yeah I saw a few guys tweeking memory and speed doesn't even seem to matter. Looks complicated though. Have you ever done it? Is a good mobo more likely to affect this?

I couldn't believe some of the fps increases from tweeking timings. Crazy

But... Even after all the vids I've watched I still don't know what to buy... I just know not to buy expensive stuff, even if low latency advertised.

I'm just looking at standard 3200 or 3600 cl18 vengeance atm

 

[slim01]

B450m with 3700x job done.

Extra 100 quid for like 2% gains in fps? That just ain't my style cowboy .

Amd kind of screwed up the oppurtunity to sell me their expensive chips with that one . Seems like the i5 2500k of recent times. I think it'll hold up well.

 

[slim01]

Ok so these are the gpu prices.

Hope they help you recommend something... Took ages to convert from Chinese yuan!

-The (+xx%) indicates rough performance gain over a gtx1080 according to PC Gamers 11 game average test @ 1440p.

-igame is basically a Chinese ZOTAC/msi brand. They look solid and seem to mostly be the black Friday deals (China likes you to buy China goods :s)

............................................................
2080ti (+58%)
872 msi
671 igame

2080s (+36%)
581 asus
559 zotac
525 nvidia

2080 (+34%)
470 igame

1080ti (+27%)
396 asus

2070s (+23%)
402 igame

 

[slim01]

Yeah I agree with everything... I think me and you are on the same wavelength .
Laying down the cash for a 2080 is a bit mad. But it seems like the path I should take if I want fps gains now
It's a lot of cash for +36%.

However, that said, did you see the prices above?
The 2080ti is actually the most cost effective in terms of gains over a 1080... Can't even believe I'm considering it... With a brand I hardly know.

Will be strapping a 280mm aio on it though.

 

[slim01]

I'm not gaming at 4k often, but would love to.

As mentioned I'm sat right next to a 55" TV. ALSO, for some reason I've lost the ability to use 60fps when set to 1440p. Nvidia locked to 30fps.

So 4k helps... A lot. And I guess the only 4k option is the 2080ti.

 

[slim01]

Yeah

I really don't know much about Chinese brand gpu's, although I've seen some reviews on one or two that are impressive.

It's really your call mate, I don't think anyone else can ultimately decide on whether it's worth it or not. While we share the same opinions for sure, you're the one playing the games at the end of the day. For what it's worth, while the 2080ti is expensive, it's also going to be a damn good card for a few years and is unlikely to be easily replaced.

True true. Looking at the gpu prices above what would choose? Bang for buck wise?

I think I might just go all out with the 2080ti... God dammit I wish amd would hurry up and release a 2080ti killer .

I'll see if I can get that crucial memory here now. Thanks for that one

 

[slim01]

I've actually tried and failed. In fact I'm not even sure it's a technical issue...
Believe it or not the specs of the Sony x900f TV only list 30fps @ 1440p.
-When choosing 1440p on the nvidia panel 60fps just isn't there anymore.

I remember reading the rTings review before I bought it and thinking "nah come on its gotta do 60fps, esp if it does it @ 4k."
And It was actually recommended as a pc/gaming TV so I literally assumed it was a miss print on the specs.

The crazy thing is I have actually ran 1440p @ 60fps several times. I have the benchmark screenshots from Assasins Creed Origins and a few others to prove it.

Cracking TV... But a big BIG £1000 **** up considering it's 99% used as a monitor.

 

[slim01]

I'm confused... To get the pc to upscale it would have to receive a 1440p (or less than 4k) capability signal from the TV? And we can't change res settings on tvs. You mean change to 1440p then choose 120hz via nvidia control panel?
If I change res to 1440p, the same settings are available. Ie - nothing higher than 30hz and no colour change options.
I've never seen 120hz selectable... Didn't know it was possible.

I'm sure the cable is 2.0 othwise surely I couldn't do 4k @ 60fps?

The TV is set to automatically download... In fact I think maybe that's why I lost 60hz @ 1440p.
I remember about 5 months ago I turned pc on and I could not get any signal.
I changed the hdmi from port 2 to hdmi 1 and I got a signal... Odd. Also got a signal in hdmi port 3 (arc) where my 4k hdr blu ray player is connected.

After playing around, I figured out if I put the pc hdmi back in #2, and changed
Display ~ Picture ~ advanced settings ~ video options ~ hdmi video range > full... I could get my picture back. I thought it was on full anyway.
I guess that's maybe when I lost 1440/60hz.

Fyi - It looks like the TV is auto'ing to "limited" because when I scroll across to "full" from either low or limited, the screen flashes on and off. I do get a signal on either now though.
What does that even mean? Full/limited?

Either way - 1440p still does not have 60hz option.

 

[slim01]

*edit*
Ok, Fixed it... Kind of.

Above was wrong... I also remember playing with...
Settings ~ external inputs ~ hdmi signal format ("enhance 4k signal format) ~ then choosing either" standard format" or "enhanced format - displays high quality hdmi signals on hdmi inputs 2 & 3. Select this option only if your device supports high-quality HDMI formats such as: 4k 60p 4:2:0 10bit, 4:4:4, 4:2:2.

Once I enable 'enhanced format', 1440p/60Hz becomes available again, as does option to change colour depth, and rgb/ycbrc colour format etc.
No 120hz though.

Should I play around with those BTW? I played around before but just left on "use default colour settings in the end.

So... Maybe I'll wait for an rtx3080... Although the rtx2080 at £390 is now tempting me

 

[slim01]

If I had of bought the 2600k instead of the 2500k, I wouldnt have bought the 3700x today.... I'd have got at least another couple of years out of it.

Well I thought the same thing and went from my 2500k to my 4770k. But actually, most of my games I've actually benchmarked perform BETTER with hyper threading off. All bar one - Assassins creed Origins, which ends up with slightly better 1%lows. Some it does not seem to affect at all.
I've literally just been using it as an i5 .

 

[slim01]

Wow that's some useful info cheers guys. Considering I'm building a future build for perhaps the next 5 years of so, so perhaps will even see a pci-e 5 card toward the end of its life, and factoring in the boards are already nearing their limit for 8c cpus (I imagine in 5 years I'll be on a 12c/24t cpu) I think x570 seems the only way to go for me.

However about amds HT not affecting performance... I swear I saw a few benchmarks from gamers nexus where the 3600 performed about 5-7% better with smt off... Am I missing something? Perhaps it was the older gen games.

I really do hope game developers start working with amd to utilise all these cores that they have brought to the table, and we see the end of the stagnating cpu performance year on year we've seen from Intel.

 

[slim01]

The same goes for gpus... I hope with amd AND intel competing for market share, nvidia will be forced to go to the next level with rtx3000 series.
I remember the jump from my 970 to the 1080 was like a 100% performance uplift. Despite the mining situation having pushed cards up, the value for money was still there.

 

[slim01]

I went with the 3600, 32gb 3200 Vengeance, Asus x570-p and rx2080 in the end.

Not a massive increase in fps for the £800 but after I've sold the Delidded 4770k, mobo and super (low latency) ddr3 I will have only spent around £300... That's not too bad for an extra 30-40% fps and some future proofing is it?

Smallest upgrade I've ever done, but tbh I'm just happy to be with AMD again. Always liked their business ethics, and it's been a looooong time since the 2500k

With people still willing to pay super luxury prices for what's pretty much yester year's core/thread counts on dead end platform I'm just getting afraid Intel will transfer that pricing to GPUs.

Well people will pay crazy money... IF that's it's only thing available (does it matter that the 2080ti is £1200 when it's the only true 4k option?) and just to say they have "the best":
The 9900k is still the fastest for gaming but at least with cpus it seems many are smart enough to realise the extra 5-10% doesn't rule out the competition now, and I've FINALLY seen so many people siding with AMD mainly because of them working to not release new chip-sets each year. Siding as in... Actually adopting the platform rather than saying it and then just going out and buying the 10% faster intel anyway... Then moaning 1 year later about the insane price of the new Intel boards

-I think Intel know full well (Esp after AMDs surprise innovations with ryzen/threadripper) that their pricing strategy will need to be VERY different against both AMD and Nvidia. They've got the financial muscle to utilise quite aggressive pricing... Let's hope they do. I just hope someone can release a high end product once again or that end of the market will remain out of the reach for most.
It only takes one courageous manufacturer to put an mrsp at the level where they can make a profit AND NOT bumrape their customers to shake up the pricing.
e.g AMDs... 5700xt (?). What a cracking card for the money... As someone said earlier it's a shame there wasn't quite enough in it over a gtx1080 to justify a purchase for me personally.