Games Piracy - What's your take on it?

[Jack Bauer]

Havent read all of these posts but I have seen a few slagging the cost of PC games in general. I really dont think this is the issue. I for one am more than happy with the cost of games, in fact Im more than willing to pay the extra to have it on steam as I hate having to use disks and store them etc. Really for me the problem is the lack of actual good games, and not just on the PC. Most console titles I wouldnt take off the shelf never mind buy. I would say there has been about 4 games I have enjoyed this year, which include MTW:expansion, HL2 EP2, Portal, bioshock and crisis. OK thats 5 but counting the orange box as one. All of these I have bought except crisis which I will get when funds allow.

To some degree I put this down to the fact that I have been gaming in one form or another for 20 years so a game really needs a good story line or to show something new for me to be interested. Another part of it I put down to a market full of low quality titles. I think the around 2000 we had a bit of a golden age of PC gaming with a lot of new ideas coming out (or if not new then perfected) and since then the industry has either reused old ideas to make cash (SOF3) or made amazing tech demos (crisis).

Another way of looking at this,

HL2:EP2
COD4
Crisis
bioshock (might as well be system shock 3)
wow expansion
lots of RTS (that are basically C&C)

Im bored of thinking of them now but Im sure there are more, what Im saying is from a list of big releases this year nearly all the good ones are sequels. All I can say is thank god for portal....

 

[Chronictank]

Why SHOULD you be able to try before you buy?

-snip-

My point is simple. If you want something for nothing, then just be man enough to admit that that is why you downloaded it. Don't try and make excuses and try to justify your piracy. There is no justification as the exact same 'reasons' can easily be applied to any theft of a tangible item. It still doesn't make it right, so why bother trying to justify it!!

That is all

Good points and agree with most of them, just like to say that i am not justying it at all was just giving the rationale behind it
Yes people shouldnt do it, but if companies wanted to truely stop it on the whole like you said they could release real samples of the product (take mount and blade for example) rather than a very limited demo in the majority of cases. The last good demo i played was UT99 or maybe BF2 where you got a real feel of what the game is like, i know its personal opinion but to me at least that says volumes about the quality of 'samples' being released today

 

[FooAtari]

You are missing the point.

I leave enough money to cover ALL the costs for producing an 'identical' TV. A TV that they can profit on in the same way as they would with the one I take.

Surely you agree that those costs are NOT £500, otherwise they wouldn't make any profit by selling the TV for £500.

Argh, my head is starting to hurt. Ok yeah some of that £500 is pure profit for them, that's the whole point.

Oh, and yeah they didn't profit on the one I took (I agree) - but don't worry, I wouldn't have bought it for £500 because I couldn't have afforded it I was only taking it because I wanted it, but I would NEVER have bought it. However I did leave them enough money to make a 'copy' of that TV (including all the costs to pay someone to make it, and any other costs), so don't worry they didn't 'lose out'

unless you are trying to suggest that I would need to leave £500 (or more?) for them to 'replace' the TV that I took?! Surely you're not suggesting that. I'm sure you'll agree that they can make a replacement for less than £500 - and so as long as I leave them whatever that amount is, then they can make a new 'copy' of the TV for FREE (they don't have to spend ANY of their own money to make it). They then still have a TV that they can sell for a profit, in EXACLTY the same position as before I took the original TV.

Here again, you do have a point. No all costs considered it probably wouldn't cost £500 in total to produce and sell another.

The only difference is that in the case of software the 'taker' doesn't need to leave ANY money to ensure that the 'seller' can 'replace' the 'copy' they took.

No the difference is I wouldn't be able to do that in a shop, I could get away with it when downloading a game

All you have done is started to think exactly like most software manufacturers...'We need to sell things for MORE than it costs to make, if we're to stay in business'.

So in the case of software, even though it is 'free' (ignoring development costs) to 'create' each copy of the software. They still have to sell them for more than ZERO in order to stay in business. If EVERYONE came along and said 'I wouldn't have bought it, so its ok' and 'the manufacturer isn't losing out', then they would NEVER make any profit and would go out of business.

I fail to see your point here. I have never disputed that it costs them money to develop and distribute a game. And the cost of selling the game funds this, well mostly the publisher actually, but anyway.

With software piracy, people always assume that even though THEY justify it as ok, that OTHERS won't and so the software company will still get the same sales (and hence profit)!

I don't justify it as being as OK. But generally that's how things work in the real world. What I dispute is their claims that every downloaded game is a lost sale. It isn't. So therefore their claims of having lost X amount of pounds are not accurate. Sure they have lost money as a percetage of those downloaded games is lost sales, people who do want the game, but at no cost. Many of these people probably pay for very few games.

What I'm not sure about is the scale of the problem as claimed by the victims. With the popularity of online gaming now it is easier for them to monitor how many users are using pirated copies. The advent for P2P has raised awareness of the problem. But is it really that much worse? I'm not sure, when I was a kid we swapped copied Disks/CD's every day. I'll give you a copy of Doom if you give me a copy of Lemmings.

PC Gaming is struggling at the moment because of the rise in popularity of consoles. Consoles have none of the complications of a PC, not hardware requirements to worry about, drivers, compatibility issues. You just bang in your disc and you playing in minutes, even online. I know many a PC gamer that now games almost exclusively on consoles.

But in my example (with a tangible item) you automatically fell into the trap that they would go out of business because IF EVERYONE did what I did (and JUST paid enough to cover costs of making a 'replacement' set), then they would never make any profit!

Again, whats your point? Of course they would go out of busines. Fact is not everyone does it....

 

[Macro]

Whichever way you write it up be it as "Stealing" or "Piracy" the people that do it are dishonest and so unlikely to be bothered by any arguement here that tries to suggest that it's wrong to do so.

 

[peetee]

why should we be able to try before we buy?


Because its our money they want? If its what we want, its what they should be giving, supply and demand?

They dont offer us the means to do it so sit and swivel?

Well we dont need them to, the pirates give us the means to do it, and to be honest, Id rather download off a torrent than having to use one of the various downloaders available.


If id never have tried cod4 id have never bought it, theyv got my £25 for that, end of arguement, its got them a few buyers.
I could have bought it for a few quid less than £25 second hand, meaning £0 in the pocket of dev, that in my eyes is as bad, if not worse than piracy.

it was $70 off steam, i wanted to get it off steam, but id be paying £10 more for the standard edition than i did the collectors, so i figured sod it, ill download it now so i dont have to treck into town(it was hammering it down for days) and see what i think, as many FPS games get good reviews but i rate them average and dont like the overall 'feel' or response i get from my character.


a lot of people here slating piracy when you really dont have a clue about it for a lot of people, yes theres always gunna be people doing it, but those are the people who go and buy crap pcs from pcworld who cant enjoy the game anyway, or who wouldnt have bought it anyway. Most SP games are so short anyway nowadays the more effort is put into MP, so you have to buy it to enjoy that aspect. If its not worth buying theyll not attract the try-before-you-buy people, so it pushes them to work harder.

 

[markk]

I actually downloaded COD4 and played online (on cracked servers) as I was not too sure that I would like it. The reason for this is that I love COD + COD:UO but i think COD2 was the biggest pile of crap I have ever played. I played the single player demo of COD4, but that does not give you a real feel for multiplayer.
As soon as I realised I liked it, I went out and bought it. I have not started the single player campaign yet - only multiplayer.

 

[div0]

No the difference is I wouldn't be able to do that in a shop, I could get away with it when downloading a game

Which is exactly my point (and I've posted this already more than once).

People pirate software for 3 reasons:

1) They want to have it
2) They don't want to pay for it (/edit - before trying it out first)
3) They know they can get away with pirating it

The reason's they try to use to justify it, are all completely irrelevant, as I have shown. I have shown that tangible items could be 'stolen' in a way that allows all the same 'justifications' to hold true. But people don't do it for the simple reason that they would get caught.

As I've said many times, if people pirate software, they just need to accept that they do it because they want it, they don't want to pay for it and they know they can get away with it.

Any other attempts to 'justify' the piracy are pointless.

I fail to see your point here. I have never disputed that it costs them money to develop and distribute a game. And the cost of selling the game funds this, well mostly the publisher actually, but anyway.

I know but the point is that with software piracy, people automatically assume that THEY can justify it and so it isn't harming the industry, because other people will still buy it.

In my example (with a tangible) item you automatically realised the flaw in that argument (possibly without thinking about it). That if one person can 'acquire' an item for free (or without causing the manufacturer any loss), then why would anyone else want to pay the full price, when all they had to do was 'justify' it to themselves that they 'wouldn't have bought it in the first place'.

I don't justify it as being as OK. But generally that's how things work in the real world.

But many people do. My point is that if people are going to pirate software, then don't bother trying to justify your reasons. The reasons always come back to the same 3 basic reasons...

...they do it because they want it, they don't want to pay for it and they know they can get away with it.

What I dispute is their claims that every downloaded game is a lost sale. It isn't. So therefore their claims of having lost X amount of pounds are not accurate. Sure they have lost money as a percetage of those downloaded games is lost sales, people who do want the game, but at no cost. Many of these people probably pay for very few games.

Again, I don't think anyone (including software manufacturers) has ever claimed that ever pirate copy would actually have turned into a sale.

But again, just because someone can say 'they would never have bought it', doesn't give any valid justification to doing it. So again, my point being - stop using a poor excuse for using pirate software and just admit that...

....they do it because they want it, they don't want to pay for it and they know they can get away with it.

What I'm not sure about is the scale of the problem as claimed by the victims. With the popularity of online gaming now it is easier for them to monitor how many users are using pirated copies. The advent for P2P has raised awareness of the problem. But is it really that much worse? I'm not sure, when I was a kid we swapped copied Disks/CD's every day. I'll give you a copy of Doom if you give me a copy of Lemmings.

PC Gaming is struggling at the moment because of the rise in popularity of consoles. Consoles have none of the complications of a PC, not hardware requirements to worry about, drivers, compatibility issues. You just bang in your disc and you playing in minutes, even online. I know many a PC gamer that now games almost exclusively on consoles.

I agree with most of what you're saying and I think that fundamentally most of us agree that pirated software is wrong and that people shouldn't do it.

I think most people also agree that some of the methods used to try and counter piracy, also only end up inconveniencing genuine cutomers, without having much effect on reducing piracy.

Most people will also agree that cutting out piracy would not automatically mean greater sales for the manufacturer. Although I think (hypothetically)you would probably see some increase.

And also I think most people agree that some form of sharing/loaning amongst friends has always gone on, and is probably acceptable to a certain degree.

Again, whats your point? Of course they would go out of busines. Fact is not everyone does it....

My point is that in one case people do it, and in the other they don't. Even though in both cases you could justify your actions with exactly the same excuses! ('no-one loses out' and 'I wouldn't have bought it anyway')

The reason people do it in one case, but not the other?

You've mentioned it yourself already

....they do it because they want it, they don't want to pay for it and they know they can get away with it.

So my point is that people just need to stop using these very poor excues and justifications for using pirate software. They are pointless and would be completely irrelevant if it wasn't for the 3 key reasons...

1) They want to have it
2) They don't want to pay for it
3) They know they can get away with pirating it

Hopefully you understand what I've been saying all along now

 

[Chronictank]

1) They want to have it
2) They don't want to pay for it
3) They know they can get away with pirating it

Hopefully you understand what I've been saying all along now

yet point 2 is plain wrong in a lot of the cases posted here
and it isnt 'pointless' or a bad justification, its a simple fact because people ARE paying for it after they have tried it

 

[Reiver]

They are pointless and would be completely irrelevant if it wasn't for the 3 key reasons...

1) They want to have it
2) They don't want to pay for it
3) They know they can get away with pirating it

Hopefully you understand what I've been saying all along now

Admit it, if you were chocolate you'd eat yourself. You seem to have a very high regard for this "insight" into the minds of Pirates you've come up with but, like your TV analogy, repetition of it makes it neither true nor clever.
What's the point though? You're so sure of your understanding of the motives despite an entire thread filled with testimony to the contrary that another post saying you're talking rubbish is unlikely to shake your self assuredness.

Motivation for piracy is obviously more complex than simple greed and immorality!

 

[div0]

Ok, if there was any doubt, this sums up my point beautifully.....

why should we be able to try before we buy?


Because its our money they want? If its what we want, its what they should be giving, supply and demand?

They dont offer us the means to do it so sit and swivel?

Well we dont need them to, the pirates give us the means to do it, and to be honest, Id rather download off a torrent than having to use one of the various downloaders available.


If id never have tried cod4 id have never bought it, theyv got my £25 for that, end of arguement, its got them a few buyers.
I could have bought it for a few quid less than £25 second hand, meaning £0 in the pocket of dev, that in my eyes is as bad, if not worse than piracy.

it was $70 off steam, i wanted to get it off steam, but id be paying £10 more for the standard edition than i did the collectors, so i figured sod it, ill download it now so i dont have to treck into town(it was hammering it down for days) and see what i think, as many FPS games get good reviews but i rate them average and dont like the overall 'feel' or response i get from my character.


a lot of people here slating piracy when you really dont have a clue about it for a lot of people, yes theres always gunna be people doing it, but those are the people who go and buy crap pcs from pcworld who cant enjoy the game anyway, or who wouldnt have bought it anyway. Most SP games are so short anyway nowadays the more effort is put into MP, so you have to buy it to enjoy that aspect. If its not worth buying theyll not attract the try-before-you-buy people, so it pushes them to work harder.

Pleanty of reasons/justifications for his piracy...

All the other 'justifications' are just completely irrelevant.

'they ended up with my money in the end'
'my friends bought it after I recommended it from playing a pirate version'
'it's too expensive'
'only worth it if you can play multiplayer'

They are just excuses used afterwards to try and justify the piracy. But ultimately it came down to the fact that he wanted to have it, he didn't want to pay for it and he knew he could get away with downloading it.

Sure some of the other 'justifications' may be factually correct, such as if he hadn't pirated it, then he might not have bought the game afterwards. But its all irrelevant, I've already shown that the same attitude can easily be applied to theft of a tangible item (but lets not go over that again) and that the same 'justifications' would hold true.

But people don't do it. They don't do it for one reason, they wouldn't get away with it for a tangible item. They would get caught and possibly prosecuted.

So my point?

Use pirate software? Stop posting useless justifications for it!!! Just admit that you do it because you want it, you don't want to pay for it and you know you'll get away with downloading it.

 

[divine`]

I make no excuses for it when I do it. It's wrong, everyone who does it knows it's wrong. Yet people do it anyway. There are no excuses, no justifications. You're doing wrong. Just learn to accept it and stop making useless excuses. div0 is perfectly valid in most of what he says.

You've downloaded something you didn't pay for nor have any right to have. I couldn't give a monkeys if you buy it for a fiver three years later, nor could the courts.

 

[Von Luck]

..

 

[div0]

yet point 2 is plain wrong in a lot of the cases posted here
and it isnt 'pointless' or a bad justification, its a simple fact because people ARE paying for it after they have tried it

While I agree with points 1 and 3, point 2 is incorrect. A number of people have already indicated that they will happily pay for something provided that the goods are worth the investment.

If computer games were subject to the same returns policy as other items, then this wouldn't be an issue. If I order something online, find it does not meet my needs and it is still in perfect condition, then I have 14 days to return it, no questions asked.

However with a game, once you've purchased it, you cannot return it, ironically due to piracy fears!

Btw - this isn't justification, because I don't really care how my actions are viewed by others, I'm just telling you how it is. I fully accept that it is legally wrong, however I have no qualms about it morally.

Ok read #2 as 'don't want to pay for it, without trying it first'

It doesn't make much difference to the point I'm making.

 

[divine`]

While I agree with points 1 and 3, point 2 is incorrect. A number of people have already indicated that they will happily pay for something provided that the goods are worth the investment.

I've always been sceptical of the sheer volume of people who claim they pirate loads of stuff then buy it all anyway. I think a lot of people say they do but the reality differs substantially.

I mean, what's the point in me going to the effort of buying Film A when i've now seen it already and got a copy in almost DVD quality?

Why buy game A when i've already played most of it?

I'm not sure how much I trust people who say they download 3GB worth of game, crack it, then play it for a few hours, then uninstall, go to a shop and buy it, reinstall etc.

 

[Shamikebab]

I mean, what's the point in me going to the effort of buying Film A when i've now seen it already and got a copy in almost DVD quality?

Why buy game A when i've already played most of it?

Well I would do it to show my appreciation for a high quality product. Also I like owning physical products, its the same with CD's for me.

 

[peetee]

this boils down to ethics really.

Its ethically wrong to do it, and illegal, but then its not really ethically wrong for someone to want to try a game before they buy it, isntead of being given a demo which doesnt really offer much to try.
Its also ethically wrong for Developers to rush and release unfinished and buggy games, which is why there is a lot of distrust and a lot of people(like myself) turned to piracy, as most buyers can only buy X amount of games, and feel ripped off when they get shoddy game for the money.
The TV arguement - hows about you add this to it.

Buyer pays the £500 for TV, the colours are crap, it freezes up, in general is a bad piece of equipment and obviously needs fine tuning a bit.
Buyer takes TV back to shop, gets full refund.
Now lets see .. a PC game.. buyer pays £30 for a game in shop, takes home, installs(maybes they dont, because it doesnt work in their DVD-DRIVE?) and runs, Game doesnt run because buyer has 4gb of ram, game poorly coded.
Game crashes on startup because of incomatibility issues.
Game works, game runs like crap.
Game works, game looks like crap.
Game works, game IS crap.
Buyer takes game back, shop refuses refund as game opened.
Developer gets sale, Buyer is £30 down with a piece of crap to show for it.
OR
Developer gets sale, Buyer sells game second hand, gets £15(game is crap, depreciates value and buyers are hard to find), buyer loses out on second hand and only has hassle for his troubles, Developer loses out on another possible £30, meaning only half money they would have otherwise earnt if initial buyer had found game experience adequate to keep it and not sell on to another possible punter.

Thats pretty bloody relevant to your comparison id say, and it shows its not all 1sided so like a few say, off the high horses and wake up to the real world.

 

[Jack Bauer]

Well I would do it to show my appreciation for a high quality product.

Agreed, if the game is good and I bother to play it then they deserve the money, otherwise we would have no games full stop. I have to admit tho I didnt look at it this way untill I hit my 20s. I dont think you consider the effort people put into games as a kid.

 

[Von Luck]

..

 

[Von Luck]

..

 

[div0]

<snip>

Great points and again things that I agree with myself.

But again it is just another way of trying to justify the piracy.

My point is pretty simply: that if people didn't think they could get away with it then they wouldn't do it.

I'm not on a high horse, because anyone who's read the whole thread will know I've already stated that I apply the same comments to myself as to anyone who's used pirated software. All I'm saying is that the excuses/justifications don't make it any less wrong - so trying to use them as a reason for doing it is a bit pointless.

I can't believe people are getting so wound up about this.