General Headphone Audio

[mrk]

I think the price is a bit high looking at them as a whole, but yes lol.

Bit of an update 500+ hours of listening time on the WARMER, the sub-bass extension has opened up now, the stock tubes are absolutely capable. Will be interesting to see how the new upgrade tubes sound vs bedded in stock tubes. The HE1000se is sounding incredible via this DAC.

You can hear the bass detail through the mic from the headphones at the start here

 

[michty_me]

Anyone gone from a Schiit Modius DAC to a Bifrost 2/64? I'm interested in hearing (no pun intended) your thoughts. A worthwhile upgrade? Its an itch I've been wanting to scratch for a few years to be honest.

 

[Angst]

On the ASR thread, some guy measured the WARMER and compared it to the k17, it had serious sub-bass roll off.

FIIO Warmer R2R DAC (with tube buffer)

It has already been established that this DAC has a different sound signature by design. What is being said here is that all well designed DACs that measure transparent can not be told apart in a controlled blind test. This is something entirely different than stating all DACs sound the same...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[mrk]

How much use time did his WARMER have? If it's under a few hundred hours, then yes that explains the rolloff. The post mentions nothing about it so I assume people there will be going off the whole notion similar to when they say all DACs sound the same.

 

[Jenz]

@mrk if you can try a day of Dunu S&S tips for your IEMs. I use them on every pair of IEMs I have (over 10). Love them, perfect seal and fit for medium ear canals. Very reasonably priced also.

 

[Angst]

How much use time did his WARMER have? If it's under a few hundred hours, then yes that explains the rolloff. The post mentions nothing about it so I assume people there will be going off the whole notion similar to when they say all DACs sound the same.

If you believe in burn-in over a few hundred hours being real, then you can post there and ask him how long he's used it for, or measure your own and show it yourself.

 

[mrk]

I don't believe in burn in for some things but do for others. Speaker burn in isn't a thing, neither is headphone burn-in, TRIANGLE made this clear, only acclimation to the new environment post-transit is all that's needed as driver suspension materials reach room temp, that is it.

I did a lot of research in tubes the last couple of weeks and found that tubes do change over time, they age and eventually need replacing. During the ageing process dynamics change and depending on implementation, a peak performance can be sustained for a period of time (couple of years in normal tube implementations in amps it seems) before degradation starts - Here with WARMER things are different, it's undervolted by half, and only in the buffer stage so only being used for the second-order harmonics, still, the tubes get hot and heat cycles play a part all the same. Should at least mean the quad tubes here have an easy life and last several years as opposed to just a couple.

I don't have the extra equipment to measure, and as everyone already knows, I am not too bothered about measurements enough to get the kit to do so, although yes it would satisfy the measurement fans, it does nothing for my own preferences which is to trust my ears! Everything I have noticed about WARMER so far has been reflected by others who are now into a few weeks spent listening to their units too, so I am not alone in my findings as it turns out.

@mrk if you can try a day of Dunu S&S tips for your IEMs. I use them on every pair of IEMs I have (over 10). Love them, perfect seal and fit for medium ear canals. Very reasonably priced also.

Are they these?

Linsoul DUNU S&S Silicone Eartips S/M/L (3pairs) for Nozzle Diameter from 4mm-5.5mm for Stage Studio, for KZ ZS10 Pro, 7HZ Zero, Orchestra Lite, TANGZU Wan'er S.G IEM (S/M/L- Each Size 1 Pair): Amazon.co.uk: Musical Instruments & DJ

‎

www.amazon.co.uk

If so I will order them, memory foam tips are great but they do wear out and need replacing from past experience using them, so silicone ones that are just as good would be great like that.

Edit* done it, deal going on ali so:

 

[Jenz]

Are they these?

Linsoul DUNU S&S Silicone Eartips S/M/L (3pairs) for Nozzle Diameter from 4mm-5.5mm for Stage Studio, for KZ ZS10 Pro, 7HZ Zero, Orchestra Lite, TANGZU Wan'er S.G IEM (S/M/L- Each Size 1 Pair): Amazon.co.uk: Musical Instruments & DJ

‎

www.amazon.co.uk

If so I will order them, memory foam tips are great but they do wear out and need replacing from past experience using them, so silicone ones that are just as good would be great like that.

Edit* done it, deal going on ali so:

Yes that’s them.

 

[Angst]

I don't believe in burn in for some things but do for others. Speaker burn in isn't a thing, neither is headphone burn-in, TRIANGLE made this clear, only acclimation to the new environment post-transit is all that's needed as driver suspension materials reach room temp, that is it.

I did a lot of research in tubes the last couple of weeks and found that tubes do change over time, they age and eventually need replacing. During the ageing process dynamics change and depending on implementation, a peak performance can be sustained for a period of time (couple of years in normal tube implementations in amps it seems) before degradation starts - Here with WARMER things are different, it's undervolted by half, and only in the buffer stage so only being used for the second-order harmonics, still, the tubes get hot and heat cycles play a part all the same. Should at least mean the quad tubes here have an easy life and last several years as opposed to just a couple.

I don't have the extra equipment to measure, and as everyone already knows, I am not too bothered about measurements enough to get the kit to do so, although yes it would satisfy the measurement fans, it does nothing for my own preferences which is to trust my ears! Everything I have noticed about WARMER so far has been reflected by others who are now into a few weeks spent listening to their units too, so I am not alone in my findings as it turns out.

For reference, i asked and am waiting for a response but someond else fid comment in the meantime.

"This is not a tube power amp where one might need a few minutes or so to get all tubes to get in its intended bias range.

This is a tube buffer using ECC88 meaning less than a minute is required and there will be no change after that."


Seems to be a subject lots of people have differing opinions on but i cant find a single study done thats tried to measure the changes ocer time to confirm it.

 

[mrk]

They are correct in that it's not a tube power amp, but the tubes are still being used for the harmonics so surely the same principles apply to get the exact harmonics desired, and that's by letting the tubes warm up to temp first which every resource online about tube sound says is typically around 15 mins. Warmer doesn't sound as "open" in the morning right after turning it on, for example, 20 mins later though all good.

I don't think the implementation here is a mistake from Fiio, it seems deliberate as to the design of the internals to operate this way, which probably explains the name too, it's not only warm sounding, but is quite literally thermally operating too and I refer to previous Fiio staff comments when Warmer was first hinted at from one of the first audio shows where they said it was an exercise on what is possible if they were just allowed to explore the true potential of a tube based device and without caring about trivial things like how hot it runs but still keeping fair to modern operating conditions and efficiencies as a DAC.

Edit*
Should also add that if people have seen my internal photos of Warmer then there are a whole load of large capacitors/resistors in there doing their thing, these do change over a period of time as things stabilise, so maybe these are attributing to the sound levelling out since unboxing too. I guess this will be confirmed once I get the new tubes in and if it still sounds the same, then that confirms this.

 

[Raymond Lin]

got the email that ZMF Black Friday sale ends today, aka their b stock, so I got one of the last one left. It doesn’t look too bad, not the one I would have gone for had it been Day one, it is more plain in terms of grain but also way better than some. End game closed back done.

At least it is a leather headband and saved £200 on rrp.

And I re-joined the gym as punishment lol

 

[mrk]

£69 customs fee for the tubes!

 

[Raymond Lin]

£69 customs fee for the tubes!

That’s some expensive tubes?!

 

[mrk]

Delivery is Wednesday

 

[Raymond Lin]

£69 customs fee for the tubes!

I am expecting something like £180 bill for the Bokeh Closed when it lands...

The bill after delivery is £684. Ususally 25% on top covers it as that is VAT and any of the admin charge added.

 

[mrk]

The annoying thing is the ebay price included VAT, don't see anything saying VAT removed because it's a UK order, so I've paid extra VAT now thanks to customs.

 

[Rroff]

Seems to be a subject lots of people have differing opinions on but i cant find a single study done thats tried to measure the changes ocer time to confirm it.

A hugely polarised subject as well. One I've found with OPA1612 op amps - I can instantly tell the difference, with blind testing, between those fresh out the box and those with some hours on them but people with high end measuring equipment claim there is no measurable difference.

 

[Timber]

That forum ASR is such a minefield. I've read the Warmer thread. Leaves me with mixed emotions, like I understand the argument on measurements vs subjective impressions, or bias.

Although I often see they hate iFi stuff too, but I can only find a few iFI Zen reviews and the one I have sounds fantastic (albeit again I know maybe that's a preference thing). So there are gaps in their reviews too.

 

[Angst]

Yeah, I get that some things can be harder to measure, or we don't understand exactly what it is that causes the psychoacoustic effect fully, such as soundstage. But something like a bass roll off and distortion caused by tubes are definitely completely measurable and understood. The ASR forum, like all forums, I think is a mixed bag. There are a few very knowledgeable people mixed in with a lot less so that much like on head-fi like to parrot what others have said without understanding it fully themselves or being open to other opinions/points of view.

I changed the grills on my HE6SEv2 to even more open ones the other day, it sounded very different, much more open and cleaner. From measuring it the FR response was very similar to the point you could say its hadn't really changed at all, and if all you saw was a FR graph you would assume it made no difference. It was only looking at the impulse response and the distortion measurements where it was obvious there was a real change. Which I think is an example the problem ASR has, a lot of people will see one measurement on there or set of results without looking at the full picture or looking deeper and declare it as an absolute scientific fact.

 

[Timber]

Yeah, I get that some things can be harder to measure, or we don't understand exactly what it is that causes the psychoacoustic effect fully, such as soundstage. But something like a bass roll off and distortion caused by tubes are definitely completely measurable and understood. The ASR forum, like all forums, I think is a mixed bag. There are a few very knowledgeable people mixed in with a lot less so that much like on head-fi like to parrot what others have said without understanding it fully themselves or being open to other opinions/points of view.

Indeed. I saw the measurements showing the drop-off of the sub-bass of the Warmer. That said would I probably notice, or care about it? Probably not.