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GFX Upgrade, advice please :)

GUB

GUB

Associate
Joined
13 Oct 2004
Posts
78
Location
Derbyshire
Looking at upgrading my well used 8800GTS so I can have a crack at BF3, Skyrim etc at a half decent FPS/resolution. Monitor (Iiyama B2409HDS) has max res of 1920x1080 so guess would be wanting to use that to its potential without breaking the bank (could spend around £200 but would be happier spending less!).

Other useful info CPU = Q6600, PSU = 620W - oh and my mobo does not support CF/SLI.

Thanks :)
 
Looking at upgrading my well used 8800GTS so I can have a crack at BF3, Skyrim etc at a half decent FPS/resolution. Monitor (Iiyama B2409HDS) has max res of 1920x1080 so guess would be wanting to use that to its potential without breaking the bank (could spend around £200 but would be happier spending less!).

Other useful info CPU = Q6600, PSU = 620W - oh and my mobo does not support CF/SLI.

Thanks :)

ATi 6950 2gb for £200
 
In your cicrumstances, I would definitely go for the GTX 560Ti 1GB. Reasons why?

1. It outperforms the 6950 or any other card in that price bracket in BF3.

2. More than 1GB vram gives no real additional benefits at resolutions of 1080p on the GF114 architecture (or any other card in this price bracket's architecture) - unless you're going SLI, but seeing as how you don't have an SLI mobo then this isn't a factor. Check this out:

http://www.bit-tech.net/hardware/2011/11/10/battlefield-3-technical-analysis/4 (you will find that on a 64-man multiplayer server with everything on ultra and 4xMSAA you won't maintain this level of performance or anything close to it, and under those circumstances you might get more frame rates with a 2gb card, but it will still be unplayable).

3. The 560 Ti is cheaper than the 6950 by around £40 and, I believe, runs cooler and uses less power.
 
Without turning this into a ten thousand word essay - opt for the card with more vram.

Battlefield 3 uses more than 1gb, as does RAGE with high definition enabled (needs hacking in*) and Crysis 2 with the 2GB DX11 pack.

*This isn't a new problem by any means. Infact, Bethesda released an ultra definition package for Fallout 3 a long time ago.

You can see it here.

http://www.pcgameshardware.com/aid,669915/Fallout-3-Hi-res-pictures-of-the-HD-texture-pack/News/

That was over two years ago. So why wasn't it included with the "general release"? because there wasn't a card on the market with enough vram to run it.

However, instead of "doing a DICE" they removed it so that the game was actually playable to the people buying it. They then released that upgrade package without any bravado and people found out how tough it was to run.

For example when I downloaded it I was, at the time, using a GTX 280 XXX edition by XFX. It had 896mb or so vram (might have been 1gb). I owned, at that time, the fastest GPU on earth. It could not run Fallout 3 smoothly with that ultra res package installed. Infact, on anything over 2XFSAA it would pause for about fifteen minutes when you entered VATS.

Bethesda (quite sensibly and courteously) realised that if they released the game like that, whilst looking incredibly sexy, it would damage their reputation. Why release a game that can not be ran properly on any GPU on the market?

Yet, that's just what Rockstar did with GTAIV. They said that, and I quote "High end graphics are reserved for future systems". I tried it the other week, a single GTX 295 wasn't even man enough (nor had enough vram) to completely max it. Three years later.

So when you make your choice make it wisely. DICE (EA) have made it fragrantly clear that they do intend to release games such as that, with no option for anything less than a TOP END gpu.
 
You can find info on RAGE here -

http://uk.pc.gamespy.com/pc/id-tech-5-project/1198576p1.html

And, Crysis 2 here.

http://www.fileplanet.com/220742/220000/fileinfo/Crysis-2-High-Resolution-Texture-Pack

There is a reason why neither were "contained" in the official releases and let out at a later date. That reason is they take immense levels of vram and power to run correctly.

Sadly, though, DICE have now bolted the stable. So, it could be that we end up with loads of games being released that can not be run on any GPU solution.

It definitely appears that for quite a while now AMD have been taking vram into careful consideration.
 
Ermmmmm those benchmarks are using MSAA which kills performance, FXAA for nVidia and MLAA for AMD are better choices.

For future proofing I would go with a card with at least 1.5gb of VRAM
 
It definitely appears that for quite a while now AMD have been taking vram into careful consideration.

DA II, Shogun 2, to name a few, have all been 'AMD Evolved' titles, so AMD have been well aware of vram requirements for some while now.

Any 2Gb 560/6950 will do the job nicely, not just for BF3 but for every other game out there too!

Both overclock to the next card up with ease, sometimes beyond!

You must be mad throwing £180+ away on a card for the sake of 1 games performance, there are other titles out there waiting to be played.;)
 
Opting for the card with more vram just because it has more vram is a stupid thing to do. The point of buying a card is to play games with. Therefore you should pick the card which will give the best performance in gaming, and you can find out which card performs best in gaming by looking at reliable benchmarks online.

E.g. the GTX 580 only has 1.5GB of vram, but it easily beats the 6970, which has 2GB, when it comes to gaming performance. The reason why is because it has more processing power. There are several elements which go into making a good card. Vram is just one of them, along with processing power, core clock speeds, shader count, etc, etc.
 
DA II, Shogun 2, to name a few, have all been 'AMD Evolved' titles, so AMD have been well aware of vram requirements for some while now.

Any 2Gb 560/6950 will do the job nicely, not just for BF3 but for every other game out there too!

Both overclock to the next card up with ease, sometimes beyond!

You must be mad throwing £180+ away on a card for the sake of 1 games performance, there are other titles out there waiting to be played.;)

Sadly though mate people are doing just that. Saw a thread today where people are saying they bought a £50 sound card to get around the problems BF3 has with Realtek cards.

Again, it ain't nowt new. Check out the money people weed away trying to run Crysis. Thousands !

Sadly you just can't explain to people that the problem is deep and lies with the software they are trying to run. And the thing is? BF3 ain't all that even when it is running well IMO. Single player is patronising and insulting. What's with the press space, now click, now press B and so on? And try to wander off? GET BACK TO THE GAME AREA.

Talk about linear. Yet, it's that problem that most PC owners face. Taming the game, no matter how crap it is or how much money it costs. Madness !
 
Opting for the card with more vram just because it has more vram is a stupid thing to do. The point of buying a card is to play games with. Therefore you should pick the card which will give the best performance in gaming, and you can find out which card performs best in gaming by looking at reliable benchmarks online.

E.g. the GTX 580 only has 1.5GB of vram, but it easily beats the 6970, which has 2GB, when it comes to gaming performance. The reason why is because it has more processing power. There are several elements which go into making a good card. Vram is just one of them, along with processing power, core clock speeds, shader count, etc, etc.

So you are advising he gets a 1gb Ti, when last night you posted a link to a thread where Gibbo had basically shown just how bad 1gb was (and it was a Ti too IIRC) in BF3?

You are the only one discussing these matters who doesn't seem to think vram is important. Many links and even pictures have been shown to you displaying how much vram it uses yet you choose to ignore.

I dunno.
 
So you are advising he gets a 1gb Ti, when last night you posted a link to a thread where Gibbo had basically shown just how bad 1gb was (and it was a Ti too IIRC) in BF3?

You are the only one discussing these matters who doesn't seem to think vram is important. Many links and even pictures have been shown to you displaying how much vram it uses yet you choose to ignore.

I dunno.

No. The link showed how bad BOTH the 1GB and 2GB versions of the 560Ti is on a 64 man server with ultra settings including 4xMSAA. The 560 can't max this game out at those settings and it's not because of vram.

You are the one who doesn't even know what texture caching is, and why this artificially inflates vram usage numbers. You're also the one who just ignores factual evidence of cards with less than 2GB vram beating cards with 2GB or more vram. I'm not saying vram is not important. All I'm saying is that there is more to performance than vram and that other factors will often prove more important.

Which is why my GTX 570 piddles all over your 6970 in BF3.
 
No. The link showed how bad BOTH the 1GB and 2GB versions of the 560Ti is on a 64 man server with ultra settings including 4xMSAA. The 560 can't max this game out at those settings and it's not because of vram.

OK then. So go ahead and explain to me why, when I ran BF3 at ultra settings with 4XFSAA did Afterburner report vram usage levels of 100%. And, why did it stutter?

You are the one who doesn't even know what texture caching is, and why this artificially inflates vram usage numbers. You're also the one who just ignores factual evidence of cards with less than 2GB vram beating cards with 2GB or more vram. I'm not saying vram is not important. All I'm saying is that there is more to performance than vram and that other factors will often prove more important.

If a card runs out of vram it uses the hard drive for paging. I actually spent about a week reading about it, hoping there was a way to get my 295s to use actual ram. Sadly, due to the way PCIE speaks to the GPU that is not possible so hard drive it was.

Which is why my GTX 570 piddles all over your 6970 in BF3.

Actually, "piddles over" equates, in the Beta version of BF3, to the 570 being, apparently, 5% faster.

You must be so pleased.
 
OK then. So go ahead and explain to me why, when I ran BF3 at ultra settings with 4XFSAA did Afterburner report vram usage levels of 100%. And, why did it stutter?



If a card runs out of vram it uses the hard drive for paging. I actually spent about a week reading about it, hoping there was a way to get my 295s to use actual ram. Sadly, due to the way PCIE speaks to the GPU that is not possible so hard drive it was.



Actually, "piddles over" equates, in the Beta version of BF3, to the 570 being, apparently, 5% faster.

You must be so pleased.

bf3.jpg


"But, but, but... the vrams!" - ALXAndy.

FYI: that's the retail version too :D
 
bf3.jpg


"But, but, but... the vrams!" - ALXAndy.

FYI: that's the retail version too :D

FYI.

Firstly I am running a Lightning card, not a stock 570. It will bench, at 980mhz, at stock GTX 580 performance. I'm sure you knew that too, as I have posted numerous threads about it.

Secondly, that is a chart from the internet. It does not depict actual gameplay, nor does it show anything other than a couple of bars. The fact that you seem to be getting very excited over the fact that your 570 may be faster is incredibly childish, but hey, I'll humour you.

And lastly, as I have explained now numerous times, I had a GTX 470 1.3gb that ran out of vram when playing Battlefield 3. In a moment of stupidity I decided to sell it and buy a 6970 2gb in order to feed the game.

And you can post as many charts as you please, but there is no getting away from it. Infact, I have seen other 570 owners saying that their cards were stuttering due to lack of vram.

Going back to your rant about texture caching.

When turned off the textures are only given video ram to use. Most games now do not allow you to change it, but, when vram runs out (as you have been told numerous times) the game will then move onto the hard drive in order to find the extra storage space in order to load in the textures.

So again, I urge you to explain to me why it is that when presented with a fair chunk of vram Battlefield 3 will use it and then some. As I said last night (and posted the pics you seem to have been craving) Battlefield 3 in single player used over 1400mb of vram.

Thus, that explains very clearly why I was having so many issues with it when I was running it on a GTX 470.

Make no mistake, my GTX 470 was a very very quick card. Infact, when pushed hard enough it made over 19000 3d score in Vantage.

Yet, when running Battlefield 3 at ultra settings on 1080p with 4XFSAA none of that mattered, because the card was running out of vram and then the game was texture caching from the next available supplier - my hard drive.

And I confess, it's not a super SATA III drive or a RAID array or SSD by any means, but the fact is that you really don't want a game using any sort of hard drive for video memory.

And all of that wouldn't be so subject to scrutiny if there were not cards with enough vram to completely eradicate the problem.

But there are. And they cost the same, or less, than cards with less vram on (which do need to use your hard drive to cache from) and are fast enough

And by fast enough I mean, fast enough to run the game smoothly with more than acceptable minimum frame rates so that you don't notice any fluctuations.

So whilst you may be very excited that on that chart you posted up there* your card scored about 7 FPS more than mine, inevitably at the end of the day you would never ever notice it when playing the game, as my card (well, a stock 6970) is more than enough.

* Now this is the part where I get to LOL.

That chart you posted was from Bit-tech. The same group of folk responsible for Maximum PC. Three months ago in one of their issues they did a rather large GPU roundup, where they basically recommended Nvidia cards over AMD cards across the entire sweep of levels.

However, this month the only Nvidia card they recommended in their suggested hardware section was the 560ti. And that was recommending it over the 6850 for medium level gaming.

When it got to the high end there was no sign whatsoever of the 570 or 580, and the card at that level was suggested to be a 6970 2gb (that blue HIS one).

So, it appears that Bit-tech have indeed changed their minds. Oddly, at the same turning point of them changing their minds they also reviewed Battlefield 3 in the very same edition.

Coincidence? I think not.
 
FYI.

Firstly I am running a Lightning card, not a stock 570. It will bench, at 980mhz, at stock GTX 580 performance. I'm sure you knew that too, as I have posted numerous threads about it.

Secondly, that is a chart from the internet. It does not depict actual gameplay, nor does it show anything other than a couple of bars. The fact that you seem to be getting very excited over the fact that your 570 may be faster is incredibly childish, but hey, I'll humour you.

And lastly, as I have explained now numerous times, I had a GTX 470 1.3gb that ran out of vram when playing Battlefield 3. In a moment of stupidity I decided to sell it and buy a 6970 2gb in order to feed the game.

And you can post as many charts as you please, but there is no getting away from it. Infact, I have seen other 570 owners saying that their cards were stuttering due to lack of vram.

Going back to your rant about texture caching.

When turned off the textures are only given video ram to use. Most games now do not allow you to change it, but, when vram runs out (as you have been told numerous times) the game will then move onto the hard drive in order to find the extra storage space in order to load in the textures.

So again, I urge you to explain to me why it is that when presented with a fair chunk of vram Battlefield 3 will use it and then some. As I said last night (and posted the pics you seem to have been craving) Battlefield 3 in single player used over 1400mb of vram.

Thus, that explains very clearly why I was having so many issues with it when I was running it on a GTX 470.

Make no mistake, my GTX 470 was a very very quick card. Infact, when pushed hard enough it made over 19000 3d score in Vantage.

Yet, when running Battlefield 3 at ultra settings on 1080p with 4XFSAA none of that mattered, because the card was running out of vram and then the game was texture caching from the next available supplier - my hard drive.

And I confess, it's not a super SATA III drive or a RAID array or SSD by any means, but the fact is that you really don't want a game using any sort of hard drive for video memory.

And all of that wouldn't be so subject to scrutiny if there were not cards with enough vram to completely eradicate the problem.

But there are. And they cost the same, or less, than cards with less vram on (which do need to use your hard drive to cache from) and are fast enough

And by fast enough I mean, fast enough to run the game smoothly with more than acceptable minimum frame rates so that you don't notice any fluctuations.

So whilst you may be very excited that on that chart you posted up there* your card scored about 7 FPS more than mine, inevitably at the end of the day you would never ever notice it when playing the game, as my card (well, a stock 6970) is more than enough.

* Now this is the part where I get to LOL.

That chart you posted was from Bit-tech. The same group of folk responsible for Maximum PC. Three months ago in one of their issues they did a rather large GPU roundup, where they basically recommended Nvidia cards over AMD cards across the entire sweep of levels.

However, this month the only Nvidia card they recommended in their suggested hardware section was the 560ti. And that was recommending it over the 6850 for medium level gaming.

When it got to the high end there was no sign whatsoever of the 570 or 580, and the card at that level was suggested to be a 6970 2gb (that blue HIS one).

So, it appears that Bit-tech have indeed changed their minds. Oddly, at the same turning point of them changing their minds they also reviewed Battlefield 3 in the very same edition.

Coincidence? I think not.

Thanks for your insightful opinion, but...

iTAmc.GIF
 
You two should go on Harry Hill, one dressed up as an Nvida HPU and the other as an ATI card and I'll shout fight!

I've got BF3 and an Asus 570 dc ii - not really played it yet so can;t add to the debate tho LOL
 
Thanks for your insightful opinion, but...

iTAmc.GIF

Quite probably your most honest post to date.

Ed. And you will be delighted to know that I just sold one of my three computers for the sum of £800. So I look forward to acting like a 12 year old child and informing you just how much my 7970 "piddles" all over your 570.

Am I doing it right?
 
What about Skyrim, the OP also mentioned that game without the OPs thread turning into a slanging match...

The 6950 sits between the 560 and the 570 on both performance and cost. I haven't factored in the 560Ti w/ 448 cores as it is out of budget.

The options are basically the 560, 560Ti, or the 6950 as they are in the OPs price range.

http://www.overclockers.co.uk/showproduct.php?prodid=GX-143-PC&groupid=701&catid=56&subcat=1752

http://www.overclockers.co.uk/showproduct.php?prodid=GX-132-MS&groupid=701&catid=1914&subcat=1341

http://www.overclockers.co.uk/showproduct.php?prodid=GX-074-GI&groupid=701&catid=1914&subcat=1341
 
There is the issue of future 3D gaming - if you think you might do this in the future, NVidia cards are better.

I also understand driver support updates are better.

I haven't looked at ATI's web presence, but Nvidia do some good articles on optimisation.

See here http://uk.geforce.com/whats-new/articles/the-elder-scrolls-v-skyrim-live-stream

I have an Asus 570 dcii bought a couple of weeks ago, I mainly bought it for the engineering I think as it is well cooled

Anyway thats my 2p ;)
 
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