Good Old British Justice!

Sequoia said:
Maybe so. Do we know enough to judge.

OK - in MY opinion, the sentence was too low.


Sequoia said:
Murder requires intent. To have intent, you have to have the state of mind to understand what you are doing, to know that it is wrong, and to have some volition in the matter. If you have a medical condition that means you don't understand, or can't control. your actions you don't have the volition to commit murder. You still killed the person, but the severity of sentence for murder is precisely because of the volition involved. Hence, if you don't have it, the sentence will be lighter.

Interesting. You may not be able to control yourself, but you still have something inside, controllable or not that gives you the ability to savagely kill another person. The law can call it what they want, say it is with intent or not. That man killed his wife. Therefore he is capable of doing it again.
Medical experts can say it is unlikely he would do that agiain, but surely they can not say for definite. Take him to that emotional state again - he may kill again. Therefore, again, in my opinion - the sentence in this case should not be treated lightly.

Sequoia said:
And whether for murder or manslaughter, the detail of the sentence depends on the circumstances. Is there a qualitative difference between someone who loses control and lashes out, resulting in a death, and someone who calmly and deliberately plans a whole series of cold-blooded stranger murders, taking great care to avoid detection? In my view, there certainly is and the legal establishment agrees.

I agree with you. But I am not saying he should be sentenced like a serial killer, I'm saying he should be treated like a dangerous killer - regardless of if some emotional state was to blame or not.

Sequoia said:
Given that medical condition certainly affects culpability, both legally and logically, do you feel a few lines of newspaper reports qualifies you to second guess a judge who will have had the benefit of detailed reports (and probably testimony) from experts on the matter? Furthermore, are you a medical expert, capable of disputing the findings and recommendations of those that are?

I find it difficult to believe the medical "experts" can confirm, just months after he commited this crime, that he had some medical condition that caused this, it has now completely cleared up and he is absolutely fine to walk the streets again so soon.

Sequoia said:
Does your lack of understanding how medical conditions affected this sentence reflect that the sentence is wrong, or does it merely reflect your lack of proper evidence, expertise, and/or understanding of that evidence?
Do you have any evidence that that is the case, or is it just supposition and presumption.

Well my understanding of how large quantities of money can affect a sentence (see OJ Simpson and Michael Jackson trials for extreme examples of this) did help in my opinion of this verdict.
When it comes to defence of a case, regardless or not as to whether to brutally stabbed your wife repeatedly in the face with a kitchen knife - the more money you can throw at your defence team - the more likely you are to get a better decision from the judge.

I stand by my opinion. This verdict stinks. The guy should be locked up for a very long time, and the fact he is a millionaire has made sure he won't be.
 
Pinkeyes said:
OK - in MY opinion, the sentence was too low.
I got that impression from before. :D

As I said earlier, I'm inclined to agree that it does seem that way. MY opinion, though, is that whatever either you or I think about the severity of the sentence, we don't have enough information to judge because we didn't hear the evidence.

Pinkeyes said:
I agree with you. But I am not saying he should be sentenced like a serial killer, I'm saying he should be treated like a dangerous killer - regardless of if some emotional state was to blame or not.
Okay. So what we have is a difference of opinion between you and the judge as to what a sufficiently heavy sentence is. We also have a judge that has seen and heard all the evidence, and a layman who has seen and heard some newspaper reports.

That's my point. We all tend to judge based on woefully incomplete evidence.

I'm not saying you're wrong, Pinkeyes, or that he should have got this sentence. All I'm saying is that not having seen the evidence and read the assessments, neither you or I have enough information (in my opinion) to form an informed opinion.

Pinkeyes said:
I find it difficult to believe the medical "experts" can confirm, just months after he commited this crime, that he had some medical condition that caused this, it has now completely cleared up and he is absolutely fine to walk the streets again so soon.
So do I, but as I'm not a medical expert, let alone a psychiatric one, and especially as I haven't even seen the reports, I don't feel I have enough information to know whether my opinion on a technical matter is worth a damn.

Pinkeyes said:
Well my understanding of how large quantities of money can affect a sentence (see OJ Simpson and Michael Jackson trials for extreme examples of this) did help in my opinion of this verdict.
When it comes to defence of a case, regardless or not as to whether to brutally stabbed your wife repeatedly in the face with a kitchen knife - the more money you can throw at your defence team - the more likely you are to get a better decision from the judge.
I notice you dodged the question about whether you're qualified to evaluate expert testimomy. However, on the point you raise there, in that context, I concede. The Jackson/Simpson cases are, of course, under a very different if superficially similar legal system. As a Californian resident for many years, I can attest to that. And on those two cases specifically, I thought the Simpson case was a travesty. MJ's case was rather more complex, and while money buys a strong defence, it needs to when the full judicial strength of the state has you in its sights.

But you're right. Money buys top legal representation and that DOES make a difference. And very probably, a big one. And it shouldn't. But can you think of a fair way to prevent that? I can't.
 
Sequoia - you are of course right. I am not a medical expert, or particularly clued up on law. I made my judgement from what I read from what I consider to be a relatively unbiased source, not some tabloid rubbish. News from that source tends to be to the point, and 'just the facts, ma-am'.

My thoughts on the medical testimony regarding this crime are not drawn from my own medical expertise (or in fact theirs). They are drawn very much in the same way you wouldn’t let a convicted paedophile take my kids to the zoo for the afternoon, despite every doctor in the world telling you he is cured now and won't bring any harm to your children.
My personal judgement is that if somebody can repeatedly stab someone in the face with a knife, I would no longer EVER trust them with knives and faces again. I don't care who tells me I should do.
This opinion my not be worth a damn to you - but it’s what I tend to go off.

Now you are also right in saying I know nothing about how to sentence this case. I have no right to decide this mans punishment. But going off the knife/face thing I mention above - I make a personal judgement on when I would like to see this man walking the streets again. It certainly isn't in 19 months.
This may be wrong in your eyes, but if I had my way - rapists would never be let out of prison again and beaten on an hourly basis for the rest of their lives and paedophiles would be hung. This may horrify some people, but only in the way that this particular judgement horrified me.

I also have no answer on how to bring justice fairly and without influence from large amounts of money. I am probably wrong to assume that this happened in this case - but I think we both agree it is very likely he paid the most money he could to get the best defence he could - and it is their job to get this man the best outcome they can. Whatever it takes...
 
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Pinkeyes said:
Sequoia - you are of course right. I am not a medical expert, or particularly clued up on law. I made my judgement from what I read from what I consider to be a relatively unbiased source, not some tabloid rubbish. News from that source tends to be to the point, and 'just the facts, ma-am'.

My thoughts on the medical testimony regarding this crime are not drawn from my own medical expertise (or in fact theirs). They are drawn very much in the same way you wouldn’t let a convicted paedophile take my kids to the zoo for the afternoon, despite every doctor in the world telling you he is cured now and won't bring any harm to your children.
My personal judgement is that if somebody can repeatedly stab someone in the face with a knife, I would no longer EVER trust them with knives and faces again. I don't care who tells me I should do.
This opinion my not be worth a damn to you - but it’s what I tend to go off.

Now you are also right in saying I know nothing about how to sentence this case. I have no right to decide this mans punishment. But going off the knife/face thing I mention above - I make a personal judgement on when I would like to see this man walking the streets again. It certainly isn't in 19 months.
This may be wrong in your eyes, but if I had my way - rapists would never be let out of prison again and beaten on an hourly basis for the rest of their lives and paedophiles would be hung. This may horrify some people, but only in the way that this particular judgement horrified me.

I also have no answer on how to bring justice fairly and without influence from large amounts of money. I am probably wrong to assume that this happened in this case - but I think we both agree it is very likely he paid the most money he could to get the best defence he could - and it is their job to get this man the best outcome they can. Whatever it takes...
Despite it having taken a couple of days to reach this point, I think we actually agree on almost all of this .... except about rapists. My punishment wouldn't involve beatings ..... but if it was up to me, it might involve being dropped naked into a pit of fire-ants, then suspended by the goolies, using rusty barbed wire, over a pit of angry vipers. Then, I'd start to get nasty .... and inventive. :D

And as for kiddy rapists ..... well, I'd better not say. This is a 'family' forum. :)

I am NOT a 'liberal' when it comes to sentencing. ;)

But back to the case in hand, if someone held a gun to my head and told me it was MY responsibility to sentence this bloke based solely on the information I have, to date, from news reports, then I, like you, would want a heavier sentence. Quite a bit heavier. My real point, from post 1 about this, is that I just don't feel the information I have is enough to say the judge got it wrong. I'm certainly not saying the judge was right - I'm saying I don't feel I have enough information to second-guess him and, perhaps more contentiously, I don't feel anybody else does either IF they are relying on news reports.

As for him paying for the best defence, that I would imagine is a good bet. Who wouldn't? I would, I'd imagine you would and I strongly suspect every (or nearly every) other member of this forum would. The problem, then, is that some of us have more money than others and can therefore afford better lawyers. This is a problem with social inequality, and I don't see a solution. After all, some lawyers simply are betterthan others. They may be brighter, more experienced, better advocates, or all three. So, given that the "best" is a limited commodity, either we accept that the "best" have a right to pick and choose their cases, which will usually invove the size of the fee as a central element in the decision, or we decide advocates are going to be allocated on an entirely random basis, thereby removing the right from individual lawyers to decide their own caseload. Either way, we hit ethical problems, and practical ones too.

The only way to really remove money from the equation (short of totalitarian regimes where the courts do the whim of the leaders, and all that achieves is to shift the medium of power from money to political influence and power) is to have a some type of Utopian communist society where every member has equal wealth. And we all know how well that idea, however attractive in theory, works in practice. As I said, I don't see a solution to the fact that those with money can afford better (and more) lawyers.
 
Sequoia said:
Despite it having taken a couple of days to reach this point, I think we actually agree on almost all of this .... except about rapists. My punishment wouldn't involve beatings ..... but if it was up to me, it might involve being dropped naked into a pit of fire-ants, then suspended by the goolies, using rusty barbed wire, over a pit of angry vipers. Then, I'd start to get nasty .... and inventive. :D

And as for kiddy rapists ..... well, I'd better not say. This is a 'family' forum. :)

Ever fancied politics Sequoia ?

I am NOT a 'liberal' when it comes to sentencing. ;)

No **** ? ;)
 
He should be in treatment for the reasons that were behind the incident, then after they deem him fit enough he serves the prison term. As 30 months for what he did is rather light and they should have tacked on a minimum of 2 years treatment for the mental issues as well.

SCM
 
SCM said:
He should be in treatment for the reasons that were behind the incident, then after they deem him fit enough he serves the prison term. As 30 months for what he did is rather light and they should have tacked on a minimum of 2 years treatment for the mental issues as well.
Not really practical or useful in this case though, as he was given 3 years to live in Feb 2005.
 
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