Gradual 5.1 sound setup

suitheist · 7 Sep 2011 at 02:10

So, I have my new HTPC running now but I want to get a decent surround sound experience to go with it. My problem is that I essentially spent all my money on the pc (also high end gaming).

It needs to go into my sitting room, which is roughly rectangular. It's a mansion block flat with high ceilings, big bay windows, but not particularly large. I don't think I would need all that much volume (I tend to keep the tv speakers at <50%). Tv is in one corner, next to the window. I've never done it before, but I suspect 5.1 might be a bugger to arrange from that kind of position.

At the moment I use the tv speakers, or some headphones through xonar dg for games.

Would it be feasible for me to create a 5.1 system piecemeal as a long term project? Say getting a receiver and running my current 2.0 speakers, then 2.1, then later the other speakers? Or some other sequence of purchases? Does this make more sense than buying an all-in-one pc 5.1 set like those sold by OCUK (considering the size of the room, limited volume requirements and my lack of experience with serious audio equipment)?

I am sure I'd get a better system doing it piecemeal (if it's possible), I just don't know whether Id notice it that much or not, and it would be rather more expensive.

Sparky · 7 Sep 2011 at 07:11

If you can handle waiting for the full blown surround sound then it is the best option for you. IMO it is far better to get the best that you can afford at any given time and take longer putting it together, than for example, rushing out and buying a £200 all-in-one system.

Dont get me wrong, there are some great all-in-one systems about but, the way you are looking at doing it would be my preferred route. Start with the reciever, then some nice quality floorstanders/stand mount fronts [2nd hand would be your best bet, far more for your money] and add the rest when you can afford it.

Hank_Marvin · 7 Sep 2011 at 10:03

Do it in stages, that's what I will do, a good dedicated av amp and two good quality bookshelf speakers will be great to start, and just build up as you go along, but maybe look at popular speaker brands so you don't have issues sourcing speakers in same range/colour etc.

Have fun.

Disco Boy · 7 Sep 2011 at 11:36

Do it in stages, my sequence would be:

2.0
3.0
5.0
5.1

So long as you don't buy satellite speakers then the bass should be fine without a sub to get along with.

What's your budget and do you want to buy new?

My setup (which isn't installed in full yet as I am moving soon) is all used stuff that I bought recently) and is as follows:
Onkyo TX-SR 606 £107 collected from ebay
fronts: b&w dm602 £78 delivered from a forum (stupidly cheap tbh, should be more like £150)
rears: b&w dm601s2
centre: b&w cc6 (£180 collected from ebay in package with fronts)

So including some cable my setup has come in under £400. At the moment it's only a 2.0 and it sounds amazing. When it's all going I reckon that a sub won't be needed as my speakers should be big and bassy enough not to need it (these 602s are pretty big!)

Compare what I have to a new setup, for example the Onkyo 5405 which is a good and well respected 5.1 package costing £350, and there would be no contest.

DiG · 7 Sep 2011 at 12:44

Exactly, used is too good a bargain to pass up in my opinion.

The only thing worth buying a relatively recent model of is the AV receiver. Other than that 10 year old speakers still sound great!

I got a nice Yamaha amp and a pair of Castle Pembroke II speakers, which are 15 years old, for £50. I can guarantee they sound as good as any new speaker + amp setup for <£500

suitheist · 7 Sep 2011 at 13:13

My problem with doing it second hand on eBay is that I don't really know what components I'm looking for. Difficult to know if it's a good deal. I guess I should just google everything I come across. Is there a good source of reviews etc on the Internet?

Do all the speakers need to be a matching set? Do you end up using essentially two additional 2.0 speakers for the rear (+ a centre speaker + sub)?

In terms of the av receiver, the guide on this forum says they're total rubbish below £250. I also find it hard to believe that you can get better audio processing out of one of these (even at £1000) than my pc could do with an appropriate sound card (I pass all my audio sources through my pc anyway). The difference in processing power must surely be ludicrous. Couldn't I have my pc do this bit, and just use a stereo amp to boost the outputs to the speakers (if they have enough inputs/outputs)? Is the problem that you'd need multiple amps?

On a side note, would it be sensible to upgrade to a decent pair of headphones first and 5.1 though the dg headphone amp while I work my way up to 5.1 on the speakers? I like the 5.1 effect from the demos I've used on my current (cheapo skype) headset, but I'm unconvinced they are terribly accurate in real use.

rarryawn · 7 Sep 2011 at 18:43

No the rears don't need to be a matching set to the front, the only speaker which does need to match is a front center. This HAS to match the front two speakers, otherwise pans from left to right will sound different when the voices move past that center speaker.

I would leave a front center speaker till last, after rear surrounds and a subwoofer as those are the really important pieces to a surround setup!

The trick to getting a decent receiver for less than £200 is to look at really old models. I picked up a Cambridge Audio Azur 540R v2 about 3 years ago ex-display for £145 with a 5 year guarantee and it is still going strong. The sound quality was as good back then as it is now, the only real difference now is ones which deal with sound over hdmi.

Don't be tempted to spend more on "DTS Master" or the Dolby equivalent which is being marketed quite heavily with blu-ray. Its wholly unnecessary!

rarryawn · 7 Sep 2011 at 18:51

Its your choice at the end of the day but you'll like the results far more if you spend your money on a surround sound setup gradually with speakers rather than a pair of expensive headphones! (You can't watch a film with somebody like that without 2 sets of headphones

)

Also a comment about routing your audio through the PC. This will definitely negatively affect any sound quality benefit you will get in buying an external AV Receiver. Also how are you going to route 6 channels per device through your PC? Is it TOSLINK switching you're doing at the moment?

I would upgrade in this order:
2.0
4.0 (rear surrounds)
4.1 (sub)
5.1 and above

suitheist · 7 Sep 2011 at 20:13

I ought to have said all my sources originate in the pc except my ps3, which I have to use the analogue connection for because I don't have a toslink in on the pc (which no doubt does nothing for it's quality- but it lets me route the sound to speakers or headphones easily). I play music and video from NAS or internet streaming and the pc will shortly have a bluray drive. My intention was to get everything copied to HDD and for the htpc to play everything on xbmc.

When you say that the pc will reduce quality, presumably that is only when processing an external source, not when dealing with content which originates from it? So it should be fine if I use toslink out? Or do I have to use HDMI for HD sound?

So, assuming I'm right about the connection situation, the best approach is to toslink to an av receiver (one out of my pc and one out of my ps3) which will service my growing speaker collection (2.0, 4.0, 4.1, 5.1), sourcing everything second hand?

Following step one, where is a good place to start reading up on av receivers?

rarryawn · 7 Sep 2011 at 20:41

suitheist said:
When you say that the pc will reduce quality, presumably that is only when processing an external source, not when dealing with content which originates from it? So it should be fine if I use toslink out? Or do I have to use HDMI for HD sound?

Exactly, content coming from the PC will be fine. If you are putting content in from a PS3 for example through a line in on your PC and then out again to your speakers, only then will you be degrading the signal. Toslink out is fine. HDMI for sound is also fine. Amps without HDMI sound are cheaper, they will have a couple of free Toslink inputs.

On a slightly different note for the "new" formats like DTS master and Dolby master, yes you will need to use HDMI. These won't offer any noticably better sound quality, its just a marketing ploy to get people to buy more blu-rays.

suitheist said:
So, assuming I'm right about the connection situation, the best approach is to toslink to an av receiver (one out of my pc and one out of my ps3) which will service my growing speaker collection (2.0, 4.0, 4.1, 5.1)

Perfect!

suitheist said:
sourcing everything second hand?

That is of course up to you, personally I am not a fan of second hand speakers as I like to know no-one has poked the cones on them etc. etc. The cheaper second hand prices would be worth it if you're on a budget though.

suitheist · 7 Sep 2011 at 21:17

Ok, that explains things a bit.

I don't really want to spend more than £300 or so on a receiver. What am I looking for at that sort of price? For example, what's the difference between these two?

http://www.richersounds.com/product/av-receivers/onkyo/txnr509/onky-txnr509-blk

http://www.richersounds.com/product/av-receivers/yamaha/rxv667/yama-rxv667

Same price, both hdmi, both toslink. One has iPod connection, the other a USB port (Not really useful additions for a receiver connected to a pc).

Which are the most important stats to compare them on?

I'm not necessarily thinking of buying either, I just want to work out what to look for.

Disco Boy · 7 Sep 2011 at 22:05

For films I would definitely recommend 3.0 over 4.0 as the centre channel is really important for dialogue. For gaming 4.0 may be better though, giving a surround.

As for which of those receivers to go for, have a read of some reviews for yourself and decide which is better suited to you.

suitheist · 8 Sep 2011 at 09:51

Ok, thanks guys! I think I have enough to get me going now.