Greenlizard0 PL & Championship Football Thread ** spoilers ** [26th - 29th November 2021]

Roy Keane talking a load of rubbish. Maybe why he made a **** manager. Klopp wouldn't take Ronaldo. I doubt Tuchel or Guardiola would have wanted him either. In any team that relies on high effort levels and the unit above the individual he simply doesn't cut it any more.

Juve have fallen off a cliff since he left and so have Madrid. I think people are just looking for something to blame as to why we have fallen off a cliff this season.

You can say all you want about how bad Ole was but he has the longest undefeated away run in the premier league and if you took a lot of the stupid results out of the way. (Drawing to west brom, losing to Sheffield United, drawing to Everton). We might have had a chance at the title. We actually beat City twice, Liverpool once and drew with Chelsea when Tuchel took over. This team is still being coached by the same coaches. It is just someone else is picking the team. Once that all changes hopefully we see something different.

I also love Carrick to bits but he doesn't feel you with tactical nouse when he talks in his pressers.

Ronaldo would have been a perfect fit for City. They need that clinical finisher. Look how they played against Palace with ten men. Still dominated even though they lost.
 
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Juve have fallen off a cliff since he left and so have Madrid. I think people are just looking for something to blame. We have fallen off a cliff this season.

We were a team that barely functioned before and with Ronaldo we are a team that is completely dysfunctional. Watching the first half, despite the fact we were thoroughly outplayed by a well coached and organised Chelsea, there was some semblance of organisation and pressing to our game. For all their possession Chelsea didn't make that much because we actually pressured them into mistakes and making quick decisions instead of allowing them to pick passes and take their time.

Thats one of the biggest reasons to press teams. Players under pressure make far worse decisions than those given time and space. Its the reason why teams know that we fall apart when pressed. We don't have the coaching and shape to fall back on when we don't have time to think and take stock.

We actually beat City twice, Liverpool once and drew with Chelsea when Tuchel took over. This team is still being coached by the same coaches. It is just someone else is picking the team.

I'm not saying we are a great team without him but I thought we were far more comfortable before he came on.

Ronaldo would have been a perfect fit for City. They need that clinical finisher. Looked how they played against Palace with ten men. Still dominated even though they lost.

He really wouldn't. City pull teams to pieces, they expect players to pass the ball if the moment isn't right. They expect players to pull teams around and make space and work your ass off for the team. They are quite literally the complete opposite to a team Ronaldo would thrive in. Of course he would score goals for them but I reckon their overall level would drop and their overall goal output.

Name another top team at the moment that is carrying a luxury player that is considered one of the best sides in the world. The only one you could even start to make the case for is PSG and City absolutely dominated them. Made them look crap. Modern football has no place for players who don't play primarily for the team when you get to the very top level.
 
Guardiola wanted Ronaldo and Tuchel wanted Lukaku who is just a poor man's Ronaldo and presses just as little.

Did Guardiola actually want him. I never read anything saying that. There were strong rumours City wanted him. Chelsea also have looked a far better team since Lukaku got injured. Tuchel will use him as the blunt tool he is but I don't reckon you will see him being the first name on the team sheet at Chelsea if they want to play this style of football.
 
Juve have fallen off a cliff since he left.......Ronaldo would have been a perfect fit for City.

Juve fell off a cliff while he was there! Their decision to sign him ended up crippling them financially and they've suffered hugely since. And Ronaldo is so far away from being a Pep/City player it's unreal.

These "if City had a centre forward" arguments are so shortsighted too. A massive part of why City are the side they are and why they create the chances they do is because they don't play with a striker that just stands in the penalty area.
 
These "if City had a centre forward" arguments are so shortsighted too. A massive part of why City are the side they are and why they create the chances they do is because they don't play with a striker that just stands in the penalty area.

Exactly. It’s like the argument that player x scored 20 goals therefore without him the team would have 20 less goals. It’s such linear and basic thinking that makes no sense in the real world. There is a reason clubs are trying to use statistics more and more to scout players and find players that complement each other.
 
I get both sides of the argument when it comes to Ronaldo but I think he’s still going to be very useful, and has done well so far in a team playing dreadfully throughout. It’ll be interesting to see how he plays for Rangnick…
 
Isn't Ragnarock the man behind gegenpress? Manager that likes team pressing vs player that rarely moves? Looking forward to that.

He is.

It'll be interesting because the job in the short term is to get results while trying to lay the groundwork for a new style of play.

I can't see him leaving Ronaldo on the bench, so he'll have to be pragmatic (I'm sure he is) and work out a system that fits Ronaldo. Assuming Ronaldo keeps coming up with the goals.

Rangnick will know that you can't just walk into the dressing room, tell everyone to press high, and that's it. It would take a long time to drill it into the players, even if they are young and energetic.
 
Rangnick will know that you can't just walk into the dressing room, tell everyone to press high, and that's it. It would take a long time to drill it into the players, even if they are young and energetic.

I really don't think its as hard as some people make out. I just think Ole barely gave it the time of day and when he did it was literally "close down the guy with the ball from the front". The interview where he is explaining that "football is easy" and its all about who wants it more is particularly damning.

Tuchel transformed Chelsea reasonably well in a month or two. The issue Rangnick will have is the complete lack of time for training over the coming month.

You can teach the basics of a lot of concepts very quickly and lets not forget that all these players are experienced. The only player I don't think will necessarily work in a press is Ronaldo. The BS about Rashford and Greenwood not being players who can press just amazes me. If your manager has never coached you to press and has never asked you to press then why on earth would you press during a game. Pressing is probably one of the simplest things to teach a player the basics of. Coordinating it well throughout a team to maximise its effectiveness is hard but the basics aren't and if teams feel like they are being pressed even remotely well by United it will make a massive difference to our game management and control.

You could see it when City played PSG. PSG barely got a sniff because they lost the ball so often that they couldn't get into any rhythm and most of their team was stuck defending for their lives because if they made a mistake trying to break the press they would have 4 or 5 City players ready to punish them.

People underestimate the value of scaring the crap out of the opposition. No one is scared to give it ago against us currently because they know they have got the tactical measure of us and we are easy to dominate in all areas. Defending against us is easy and so is attacking us because we have such poor organisation and transition. My mind was blown at the number of times we would be playing a Watford and watch one of their players being "shadowed" by 3 of our guys, no one put any pressure on him and he just passed through them to another free player. We would be the underdog in a 3 vs 5 situation because we put so little pressure on anyone that it didn't matter how many players we had back.
 
I agree with all of that. I genuinely feel like Ole just told the players to go out and express themselves and that was the extent of his tactics... he even said recently in a press conference that tactics are overrated and you just need to work hard. :o

Anyway - Rangnick confirmed now (see other thread).
 
I agree with all of that. I genuinely feel like Ole just told the players to go out and express themselves and that was the extent of his tactics... he even said recently in a press conference that tactics are overrated and you just need to work hard. :o

I don't want to make it sound like Ole didn't do any tactics but it feels like he probably took more of a Ferguson approach than a Klopp of Guardiola. He would say how he wanted us to play, where the opposition weakness was and where the oppositions main threat came from but he seemed to forget the bit where a team needs to be coached to be able to know how to deal with those situations and generally how to function on a moment to moment basis.

An analogy might be be the difference between a learner driver and an experienced one. When you learn to drive you spend a lot of your energy a focus on just working the clutch, selecting the right gear, steering the car and checking in your mirrors. Once you are an experienced driver, 90% of that happens without conscious thought and your attention is free to react to other little signals that a driver is going to pull out on you and you have more mental space for other things.

I think Ole perhaps didn't realise that just because Ferguson wasn't overly prescriptive with his tactics doesn't mean that he hadn't already laid the groundwork for years that allowed his teams to function without that heavy hand. When you have players that have been at the club for 5 years, you have a settled squad that has played together effectively for years you don't need to hold their hand as much.

Another analogy might be a child and a parent. A child sees the world as overly simplistic because they don't have to worry about doing the shopping, paying the bills, fixing the boiler etc. So the child thinks that its easy to be an adult because they simply are ignorant of how hard well functioning adults work.

TLDR: Ole is a child and doesn't understand the big picture and the work that is required to manage in his style. A bit of football Dunning Kruger where he thinks football is simple because he doesn't understand the complexity.
 
Well pogba won't be at man u so you don't have worry much longer, but for 90 million quid he's been atrocious. Has there been a worse signing in premier League history?
 
He is.

It'll be interesting because the job in the short term is to get results while trying to lay the groundwork for a new style of play.
First bit seems likely but his style is only used by a few managers so even if he does manage to make an impression on the way you play, a new manager will likely come in and want to change things around again.

The best time for a new long term manager to join you is right now. Ole's left you in a complete mess with no discernible style so you're essentially a blank canvas now.
 
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