Greenlizard0 Premier League Football Thread ** spoilers ** [13th - 15th April 2024]

[BaZ87]

The point is though, its in games like the one today where you need Kane, Haaland, Benzema etc to get one chance and finish it. That is how titles are won, a decent keeper and striker are a must in most title winning sides.

How are you defining a striker? Liverpool won the title and picked up 97 and 93 points without an out and out striker. Barring last season City under Pep have never been particularly reliant on a centre forward. Chelsea won titles with Drogba as their centre forward who was hardly a big goalscorer or clinical finisher.

It's easy to point to Arsenal's lack of a quality striker after they've dropped points and say it's because of that, that they didn't win. But what about games where City haven't won when Haaland's been playing? The reverse arguement gets made and it's because Haaland isn't a good enough footballer.

 

[fez]

But they miss far fewer than non top strikers. Think Elliot yesterday, think Werner for Spurs etc. Kane missing a few chances is not the reason Bayern have faltered this season.

Oh of course they do but Liverpool didn't lose because they didn't have a top striker. It was just a comedy of errors. Salah is a top striker and he missed a couple. And I wasn't suggesting that Kane is in any way responsible for Bayerns issues this season but my point is that teams with top strikers still struggle at times and they don't magically come out and win those games for you always.

The myth is that a top striker is making all the difference in tight games. I think they are just generally outperforming their peers over the season rather than there being a particular moment in most cases.

The other point is that in the modern game, plenty of teams don't have a wonder striker but their goals come from far more players than they used to. As Baz says, City have played without a top striker for years without it causing them too many issues. Traditional strikers have their benefits but so do having more playmakers and generally talented players in your forward line.

 

[The_One]

I don't think arsenal are particularly missing anything, its just very fine margins the top of the league table currently just proves that.

if we don't win anything this season i still want arteta he's moved us in the right direction and got us into a very close title race 2 seasons in a row and bought us back into regular champs league football.

My only gripe with him currently is how he keeps trusting zinchenko, he's not a good fit for us anymore, that will be fixed next season hopefully with timber back

 

[IPBA]

You could not write this stuff. Right at the death Arsenal and Liverpool basically hand the title to City on a gold plater. Add to this City have an easier run of games to the end of season. City's to lose now.

 

[adam cool dude]

You could not write this stuff. Right at the death Arsenal and Liverpool basically hand the title to City on a gold plater. Add to this City have an easier run of games to the end of season. City's to lose now.

It's okay big Ange and Spurs are going to save us.

 

[CliffyG]

We haven't lost a game this year, it was never going to continue like that until the end of the season. I didn't see us losing to Villa though but they did really well second half. It's going to be tough to win the rest of our games but we have to be on it just in case City slip up.

Surely now Arteta will realise Havertz can't play in midfield, he has been useless every time. If he wanted to play Jesus up top he should have dropped Havertz and stuck Partey in there I think. Then when we went behind too many changes at once. He's still young, as is the team so just have to learn from this.

 

[Jimbeam3678]

How are you defining a striker? Liverpool won the title and picked up 97 and 93 points without an out and out striker. Barring last season City under Pep have never been particularly reliant on a centre forward. Chelsea won titles with Drogba as their centre forward who was hardly a big goalscorer or clinical finisher.

It's easy to point to Arsenal's lack of a quality striker after they've dropped points and say it's because of that, that they didn't win. But what about games where City haven't won when Haaland's been playing? The reverse arguement gets made and it's because Haaland isn't a good enough footballer.

I'm defining a striker by someone who can score clear chances a high percentage of the time, score ridiculous/half chance goals and win a team a game when they are playing below par. I've said this about Arsenal all season, its not a Spurs fan having a pop Think Giroud against England in the Semi final, I said to my mates he would score he scores more often than not and wins his team games.

Prime Salah or Suarez I would put in that bracket. Again it's just my opinion, if Arsenal had a decent 'spine' I think they would have won the title no problem. They have a decent CB pairing, and they a have decent CM, can you say the same about the keeper or a forward? I don't think so, again this isn't a Spurs fan having a go. I'd like Arsenal or love Liverpool to win the title this year but I can't see it.

 

[Nate75]

They can have Rashford if they want.

Special offer.

 

[Ayahuasca]

I'd like Arsenal

 

[Calpol]

We haven't lost a game this year, it was never going to continue like that until the end of the season. I didn't see us losing to Villa though but they did really well second half. It's going to be tough to win the rest of our games but we have to be on it just in case City slip up.

Surely now Arteta will realise Havertz can't play in midfield, he has been useless every time. If he wanted to play Jesus up top he should have dropped Havertz and stuck Partey in there I think. Then when we went behind too many changes at once. He's still young, as is the team so just have to learn from this.

Very balanced.
Arsenal have been excellent. All teams have a bad day. City will too but its a question of who can keep the energy levels and focus at the required levels longest. Arsenal's squad is better than last season but maybe not as strong as Pep's. City have the ability to bench/rest stars in a way that no other club can. Other managers are guilty of running their best players into the ground and eventually it tells. It looks like Arsenal have the tougher last six games but I've been impressed enough with them not to write them off.
Re: Havertz, managers are incredibly stubborn and seemingly can't see what everyone else can. ten Hag is the same to the point it will cost him his job soon. Havertz is a body and a talented one at that, he wouldn't start for me but he's one that might just grab you a goal at an important time.

What's the gooner view on sacrificing the CL for less conjested run in?

 

[BaZ87]

I'm defining a striker by someone who can score clear chances a high percentage of the time, score ridiculous/half chance goals and win a team a game when they are playing below par. I've said this about Arsenal all season, its not a Spurs fan having a pop Think Giroud against England in the Semi final, I said to my mates he would score he scores more often than not and wins his team games.

Prime Salah or Suarez I would put in that bracket. Again it's just my opinion, if Arsenal had a decent 'spine' I think they would have won the title no problem. They have a decent CB pairing, and they a have decent CM, can you say the same about the keeper or a forward? I don't think so, again this isn't a Spurs fan having a go. I'd like Arsenal or love Liverpool to win the title this year but I can't see it.

I wasn't suggesting you were just having a pop because you're a Spurs fan but I don't really agree with the point you were making. Take Salah as an example, he's never been a clinical finisher - even in the season where he scored 40 odd goals, he missed loads of chances. City have won titles with the likes of Sterling and Mahrez being their leading scorers (or at least close to being).

Obviously you want this unicorn striker, peak Suarez probably being the only one I can remember in the PL, that works as hard as anybody, is hugely creative and scores loads of goals but the reality is you're going to have to make some compromises somewhere and it's about finding the right balance based on the rest of your side. I mentioned Haaland in my post because even today there's a legitimate debate about whether City are a better side with him than they were without him. I'm sure somebody is going to point to City winning the treble with him but he was hardly the difference maker for them in winning the CL - in fact I don't think he scored at all in the semi's or final. City were always going to eventually win the CL even without him. City have now got a forward more likely to take the chances they create than before but they're also less likely to create as much than before he arrived.

We've had the same debate regarding Liverpool when we had the Salah, Mane, Firmino attack - whenever we didn't win it was because we didn't have a centre forward but nobody would acknowledge that the chances that we didn't take may not have come about had we had a typical centre forward instead of Firmino. I think it's clear that Arteta's made a conscious decision not to have a penalty box centre forward, wanting the extra energy and or creativity of a Jesus, Havertz etc.

As supporters we'll always look for reasons why one side won or didn't but sometimes the margins are so small and it's just a case of **** just happens sometimes. We could end the season with 1-3 points separating the top 3. In that case it would be very difficult to say x is clearly better (or got their balance in attack right/better) than the others. The difference between them coming 1st, 2nd or 3rd could have been as little as 1 mistake, 1 bit of luck or 1 bad decision across a combined 108 games.

 

[fez]

Think Giroud against England in the Semi final, I said to my mates he would score he scores more often than not and wins his team games.

Thats a weird example because Giroud has never been a top top striker. At his best he is decent, nothing more. And for the sake of a decent out and out striker you would have to displace a playmaker or more general forward from the team.

In fact if you look at xG, Jarred Bowen was one of the top performers in the PL up until recently if you look at players outperforming their xG. What top strikers do is generate xG by being in the right place at the right time and generally finishing good chances. I simply don't buy into this "game changers" idea. Haaland last season was banging them in for fun because City put so many chances on a platter for him and he knows where to be and when.

 

[CliffyG]

What's the gooner view on sacrificing the CL for less conjested run in?

Not an option!

 

[robfosters]

Very balanced.
Arsenal have been excellent. All teams have a bad day. City will too but its a question of who can keep the energy levels and focus at the required levels longest. Arsenal's squad is better than last season but maybe not as strong as Pep's. City have the ability to bench/rest stars in a way that no other club can. Other managers are guilty of running their best players into the ground and eventually it tells. It looks like Arsenal have the tougher last six games but I've been impressed enough with them not to write them off.
Re: Havertz, managers are incredibly stubborn and seemingly can't see what everyone else can. ten Hag is the same to the point it will cost him his job soon. Havertz is a body and a talented one at that, he wouldn't start for me but he's one that might just grab you a goal at an important time.

What's the gooner view on sacrificing the CL for less conjested run in?

Nope, I don’t agree with sacrificing any competition. You’re in it to win it. No point even entering if you are willing to sacrifice it

 

[Nate75]

Never heard of anyone sacrificing the CL!

Europa or League Cup maybe but CL, nah...

 

[Jimbeam3678]

I wasn't suggesting you were just having a pop because you're a Spurs fan but I don't really agree with the point you were making. Take Salah as an example, he's never been a clinical finisher - even in the season where he scored 40 odd goals, he missed loads of chances. City have won titles with the likes of Sterling and Mahrez being their leading scorers (or at least close to being).

Obviously you want this unicorn striker, peak Suarez probably being the only one I can remember in the PL, that works as hard as anybody, is hugely creative and scores loads of goals but the reality is you're going to have to make some compromises somewhere and it's about finding the right balance based on the rest of your side. I mentioned Haaland in my post because even today there's a legitimate debate about whether City are a better side with him than they were without him. I'm sure somebody is going to point to City winning the treble with him but he was hardly the difference maker for them in winning the CL - in fact I don't think he scored at all in the semi's or final. City were always going to eventually win the CL even without him. City have now got a forward more likely to take the chances they create than before but they're also less likely to create as much than before he arrived.

We've had the same debate regarding Liverpool when we had the Salah, Mane, Firmino attack - whenever we didn't win it was because we didn't have a centre forward but nobody would acknowledge that the chances that we didn't take may not have come about had we had a typical centre forward instead of Firmino. I think it's clear that Arteta's made a conscious decision not to have a penalty box centre forward, wanting the extra energy and or creativity of a Jesus, Havertz etc.

As supporters we'll always look for reasons why one side won or didn't but sometimes the margins are so small and it's just a case of **** just happens sometimes. We could end the season with 1-3 points separating the top 3. In that case it would be very difficult to say x is clearly better (or got their balance in attack right/better) than the others. The difference between them coming 1st, 2nd or 3rd could have been as little as 1 mistake, 1 bit of luck or 1 bad decision across a combined 108 games.

All fair points, but why are top strikers in high demand? I would guess that Arsenal end up signing a number 9 in the summer, I was mentioning the Spurs thing to try to emphasize it wasn't a rival supporter thing, as I know it can be a bit tribal in here.

Thats a weird example because Giroud has never been a top top striker. At his best he is decent, nothing more. And for the sake of a decent out and out striker you would have to displace a playmaker or more general forward from the team.

In fact if you look at xG, Jarred Bowen was one of the top performers in the PL up until recently if you look at players outperforming their xG. What top strikers do is generate xG by being in the right place at the right time and generally finishing good chances. I simply don't buy into this "game changers" idea. Haaland last season was banging them in for fun because City put so many chances on a platter for him and he knows where to be and when.

Giroud was just the most recent example that came to my mind. The most difficult thing in football is putting the ball in the back of the net as Arsenal and Liverpool found out in the last few weeks.

 

[dannyjo22]

I mentioned Haaland in my post because even today there's a legitimate debate about whether City are a better side with him than they were without him. I'm sure somebody is going to point to City winning the treble with him but he was hardly the difference maker for them in winning the CL - in fact I don't think he scored at all in the semi's or final.

Yep he barely scored in any of the big moments when games are on the line. He didn't get any in the semi's and finals of the FA cup either. For as many goals as he's scored at City I think it's nothing to what a Ronaldo, Shearer, Henry, Suarez, Torres, Salah or Kane would have got their in their prime. He gets the volume against the **** in the leagues which is admirable but playing against a solid defensive unit which isn't injury ridden they contain him comfortably. I think City with Aguero is better than City with Haaland. He certainly wasn't their big game winner last season and he isn't this season.

 

[fez]

All fair points, but why are top strikers in high demand?

I think partly because its easier to play with a top striker than it is to get your whole forward line/midfield contributing goals and its easier to have a focal point for your attack. There are quite a few teams in the PL that either under-perform or over-perform based on the quality of their strikers.

Giroud was just the most recent example that came to my mind. The most difficult thing in football is putting the ball in the back of the net as Arsenal and Liverpool found out in the last few weeks.

To be fair, Liverpool was a comedy of errors and some massive slices of luck/bad-luck. Arsenal simply didn't create that much. Both Arsenal and Liverpool have seriously outperformed their xG in plenty of games. Sometimes it goes the other way.

 

[Trusty]

Yep he barely scored in any of the big moments when games are on the line. He didn't get any in the semi's and finals of the FA cup either. For as many goals as he's scored at City I think it's nothing to what a Ronaldo, Shearer, Henry, Suarez, Torres, Salah or Kane would have got their in their prime. He gets the volume against the **** in the leagues which is admirable but playing against a solid defensive unit which isn't injury ridden they contain him comfortably. I think City with Aguero is better than City with Haaland. He certainly wasn't their big game winner last season and he isn't this season.

Probably worth remembering he's 22/23

 

[Jimbeam3678]

I like Dele Alli but he’s hardly offering any real insights into football on MNF.