Greenlizard0 Weekend Football Thread ** spoilers ** [10th - 11th January 2015]

jonneymendoza said:
A few things to point out.

First of all lets all be honest here, That title winning side was in decline long before moyes took over and they overachieved by winning the title.

That group of players wasnt exactly sensational and they also just purchased a on peak RVP who stayed injury free and played a HUGE factor in helping them win the title.

fast forward to when Moyes gets appointed. The likes of evra and co were in decline and you could not expect them to play again so great for another season.

RVP also got injured a lot that season so could not give same impact as he did last season along with lots of other injuries united had under Moyes.

Sorry DM but your post have a lot of things i disagree with.

LVG is no better then Moyes at current time. I think he may actually be worse then Moyes considering these factors:

  1. United this season has played less games yet no better then last season in the league
  2. Questionable tactics that makes Moyes looks like Morinho at times
  3. same points tally so far compared to last season
  4. Playing dire football
  5. Spend 100m+ more then Moyes and still not progressed
  6. Questionnable reasons why he over trains and injures his players too much
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The really sad part is that if we had not just lost at home, people would be arguing against you.

Even though this is true irrespective of the last result.

The problem i see a lot is that so called fans are so called because regardless of what happens they are unable to criticise the club, the players, the tactics, the manager. That's not being a fan, that's being a fanboy. It's hiw religions work, pick on the feeble minded and maje them think it's wrong to question anything.
 
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jonneymendoza said:
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I guess you didnt think to allow LvG some lee-way as he has never managed in this country before, so wouldnt know fully what to expect.

Certainly a large handicap compared to Moyes experience here (even if majority of it was with a less accomplished team).

RvP hasnt exactly played much this season either - and wasnt coming back off a WC semi in the summer when managed by Moyes, so he isnt exactly going to be at his peak this season either. If anything Moyes had the advantage in respect to RvP (although I can see LvG being his WC manager will help somewhat, not knowing the league will counteract that , and then some.

United may have had a lot of injuries in previous seasons, but with the lack of experience added in to havnig few of his experienced players available in any given match its nto going to be anywhere as easy for LvG as Moyes found it (ignoring the fact LvG has still had more injuries by some significant margin according to some reports).

Just for the record Moyes spent approx 70m and LvG about £150m (actually less after the player sales), but either way its not 100m+ more

Not LvG's fault Moyes couldnt attract the right players, and bought exactly the WRONG player at the same time (Fellaini will never be a Utd player even if he carrries on until he is 100)

+ 2 Argentinians (a major part of LvG's spending) who played in the WC final probably arent fully recovered from last season, barely had any rest in the summer and then had transfers going through. I doubt Utd will the see the best ouf of each of them until next season
 
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I don't believe Moyes didn't have the backing to make changes nor that he couldn't attract the right players. People like to romanticise football but money talks. Di Maria left Madrid, nice weather, bigger club, better team... for money. He may have gotten less games, who cares, most players aren't scared to try and prove themselves against top players. They may have wanted him gone but he didn't have to go straight away, could easily go a year later.

Moyes didn't spend more or make key changes, because he's ill-suited to a top job. Everything he did last year screamed small time manager. Being happy with draws, thinking that getting close to a win is good enough, holding on to a 1 goal lead in an overly defensive manager.

He didn't buy more players or make more sweeping changes as he didn't have the balls, not to make 150mil of buys and potentially fail nor to change Fergie's team that much because frankly getting rid of half the players Fergie bought is nothing short of saying Fergie bought a bunch of not good enough players... which is what he did. LVG came in and pretty much did what needed doing or I should say started. Replacing the 70+% of the team that needed replacing wasn't ever a one season plan, anyone who thought it was or could be is completely and utterly delusional.

Longer term you have players like Rafael who could make good rotation/backup players, Rooney as a back up striker or sell him on if you can(financially makes sense to get shot).

If Utd have any idea's about matching Bayern and Real, and financially speaking there is no reason they shouldn't, they need to buy top players of which the squad he inherited had incredibly few, it has a few more now but needs another few next year at least to start to look like a strong squad. You then still need a bunch of youngsters
 
Moses said:
Knowing the league? Wasn't a big thing about him the stat about him succeeding in the first year in numerous places? Why didn't Koeman struggle to adapt to a new league? Mourinho? Shouldn't these big names be able to cope, with their own experience and the experience of other staff around them/they bring in. Eg. Van Gaal has people like Giggs next to him, plus has the choice of bringing in anyone he wants if he feels he lacks knowledge of the league.

Edit :: was Mata a Moyes signing, or one made by the club? Surely they knew by then..?
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I know he won the first season at Barca and BM, doesnt say whether he was at other Spanish / German clubs previous to that ( maybe he was, I have no idea on way or the other)

Laughs yeah wel done for trying to compare the Koeman role to LvG, everything about the two roles are completely different. 1000 times bigger? 10000???

Sorry when did Giggs become an experienced manager? LvG has already done five times more games tham Giggs as a manager in England

Of course Mata was a Moyes signing
 
Moses said:
Knowing the league? Wasn't a big thing about him the stat about him succeeding in the first year in numerous places? Why didn't Koeman struggle to adapt to a new league? Mourinho? Shouldn't these big names be able to cope, with their own experience and the experience of other staff around them/they bring in. Eg. Van Gaal has people like Giggs next to him, plus has the choice of bringing in anyone he wants if he feels he lacks knowledge of the league.

Edit :: was Mata a Moyes signing, or one made by the club? Surely they knew by then..?
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I know he won the first season at Barca and BM, doesnt say whether he was at other Spanish / German clubs previous to that ( maybe he was, I have no idea on way or the other)

Laughs yeah wel done for trying to compare the Koeman role to LvG, everything about the two roles are completely different. 1000 times bigger? 10000???Not to mention rhe fact that Southampton have had far fewer injuries, so therefore mkes selecting the XI a lot easier for each match

Edit Big Sam have the same pressure on him as Jose, of course not!!

Sorry when did Giggs become an experienced manager? LvG has already done five times more games tham Giggs as a manager in England

Of course Mata was a Moyes signing
 
Moses said:
He hadn't. How come he didn't need time to adapt then, but does now?
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you of course realise he took over the German Champions, and Barca were a measly 2nd in La Liga when he took over there the 1st time.....so its not exactly taking over 7th in the table like he did at Utd (even without comparing the competitiveness of the leagues, where everyone knows the German and Spanish leagues have two or three teams that are ultra -close and then the rest who are quite far behind)

Moses said:
The point is managers can come here and do well straight away. Isn't he the second coming of Christ/a ~top tier manager~/whatever? Why can't he do what others have??
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compared to Moyes he IS the 2nd coming

It isnt just about one thing in isolation its about the whole club, managing West Ham or Southampton isnt like managing Chelsea or Utd. The day to day pressure is completely different. The amount of media attention, the quantity thats written about the club, players, staff.

One of the many reasons why Moyes failed , because it was SUCH a huge jump even from Everton let alone from not even managing in this country before.

Moses said:
Nice assertion. Any basis for it? Given he was sacked three months later, and it's thought it was left that long because they could get rid of him easily once top four was technically no longer possible, don't you think it at least merits consideration that Mata was signed with the longer term/post-Moyes era in mind?
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Why woudl the club have given Moyes any money to spend let alone on a high profile player like Mata, if it wasnt his signing?

All you are basing it on is assumptions, have you got any FACTUAL basis on Mata not being a Moyes signing? No you havent, just vague rumour and innuendo

Moyes was the manager at the time, and was for three months after signing him (not exactly days now is it).
 
I think fergie wanted mata previously and he looked quite handy for Chelsea and was available so i can see the board asking Moyes and fergie to sanction the buy and fergie would have okayed it so the board went with it.

Also occuring was this:

Fabregas was a target for David Moyes – Dutch boss Van Gaal’s predecessor – and United failed to prise him away from Barcelona a year ago.

But when Fab became available at Barcelona, Van Gaal made it clear to United chief executive Ed Woodward that he did not want him.

Dutch boss Van Gaal believes United already have a similar player to Fabregas in his Spainteam-mate Juan Mata.

That left the field clear for Chelsea to bring back the midfi elder, 27, to the Premier League.
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So it all kinda backfired however you look at it. Overspending on Mata, also closing the door to buying fabregas while freeing up a midfield slot at Chelsea and giving them most of the funds to buy fabregas for ffp rules.

What's interesting is that as a club we have very few wingers. Well actually we don't we have 4. Except LVG loaned out Nani and Zaha because they couldn't play wingback. His intention all along was 5122 it seems regardless of defensive injuries, otherwise you'd tend to keep hold of your wingers and not loan them out before the season started proper. Zaha i can kinda understand but playing 442 means you need less fit defenders at any one time and less fut central midfielders as you have 2 wingers. But no..
 
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