Firstly why would a net spend figure rely on sales, especially when they're on loan anyway? Secondly, didn't Woodward tell investors that Utd don't anticipate spending much in January?
Greenlizard0 Weekend Football Thread ** spoilers ** [7th - 9th November 2014]
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Firstly why would a net spend figure rely on sales, especially when they're on loan anyway? Secondly, didn't Woodward tell investors that Utd don't anticipate spending much in January?
Caporegime
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The Arsenal situation is becoming farcical now.
After Tuesday Merson points out that Arsenal are clueless tactically and he and everyone else thought it laughable(including the Anderlecht manager) that Arsenal were pushing so far forward with so little cover.
In the build up to the Arsenal game Wenger branded Merson an idiot basically saying he was completely wrong. Arsenal throw away another lead for effectively the same reasons and Wenger comes out and says he doesn't know why or how Arsenal lost. Mert says he thought the team were mature enough to with that lead not get caught on the break, not need to push up so high.......
So even when his own CB knows, and Merson knows, and EVERYONE ELSE god damned knows, Wenger doesn't know somehow. Not only does he not know he actively has a go at other people who point out what the problem is.
Playing Chambers, mostly a CB, at fullback... while playing Monreal, a fullback, at CB...... it's beyond ridiculous now. Same things that have happened for 8 years, Wenger makes no changes, he isn't even aware what is wrong. When the entire world knows what Arsenal need but Wenger doesn't, he gets a new ******* contract for failing to fix any problems with the team year after year. He has increased spending every single year, increased the wage bill, bought ever more expensive players and still hasn't fixed any particular major problem the team has in a given year. He bought Ozil when we already had Cazorla and overpaid for him. He bought Sanchez when frankly he isn't what the team needed, he's picking up goals which is nice but his actual play deeper is pretty terrible. If we'd bought him as a striker to be the man in the box that isn't terrible, but we bought him to do a role he can't actually do and for 7-8 games we didn't play him to his strengths, which is, get in the box and get on the end of chances.
After Tuesday Merson points out that Arsenal are clueless tactically and he and everyone else thought it laughable(including the Anderlecht manager) that Arsenal were pushing so far forward with so little cover.
In the build up to the Arsenal game Wenger branded Merson an idiot basically saying he was completely wrong. Arsenal throw away another lead for effectively the same reasons and Wenger comes out and says he doesn't know why or how Arsenal lost. Mert says he thought the team were mature enough to with that lead not get caught on the break, not need to push up so high.......
So even when his own CB knows, and Merson knows, and EVERYONE ELSE god damned knows, Wenger doesn't know somehow. Not only does he not know he actively has a go at other people who point out what the problem is.
Playing Chambers, mostly a CB, at fullback... while playing Monreal, a fullback, at CB...... it's beyond ridiculous now. Same things that have happened for 8 years, Wenger makes no changes, he isn't even aware what is wrong. When the entire world knows what Arsenal need but Wenger doesn't, he gets a new ******* contract for failing to fix any problems with the team year after year. He has increased spending every single year, increased the wage bill, bought ever more expensive players and still hasn't fixed any particular major problem the team has in a given year. He bought Ozil when we already had Cazorla and overpaid for him. He bought Sanchez when frankly he isn't what the team needed, he's picking up goals which is nice but his actual play deeper is pretty terrible. If we'd bought him as a striker to be the man in the box that isn't terrible, but we bought him to do a role he can't actually do and for 7-8 games we didn't play him to his strengths, which is, get in the box and get on the end of chances.
He was RB for us.
Caporegime
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afaik that was mostly just due to squad situation, everything I read about him regarded him as a more central player who can do a job on the right and maybe at DM. He was certainly better at CB in early season for us than he has been lately at RB.
Also factoring in that we bought Debuchy and have Bellarin, while we had two first team CB's and sold both Vermaelen and Miquel, both CB's, then Chambers certainly feels more like buying another cb, one for back up and for the future.
He's not particularly fast and has more of CB build and from his games at Arsenal he's been a significantly higher quality CB than RB for sure.
Kind fixtures
Tadic and Pelle hitting the ground running
Wanyama and Schneiderlin = brick wall in midfield
Fonte picking up a decent earlier partnership with Toby Alderweireld
We do have a difficult run of fixtures coming up (same as last year) so i'd expect us to drop down a bit, the key thing is injuries. Last year our difficult run coincided with a Boruc injury and we conceded loads with Davis/Gazzaniga. If that happens with Forster the result will be the same.
We've lost our two "toughest" games away at Liverpool and Spurs but we had decent chances in both games to level, so i'm confident of us making a decent go at the other hard games coming up compared to last year. Depends on Forster staying fit.
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Re Chambers i don't know about his time in the youth team but in the first XI last year he was always a RB (over 20 appearances) it always irked me as i wanted to see Clyne ahead of him. I know he's been a CB for you but being asked to play RB shouldn't have been a problem (don't know about the players alongside him though!).
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I think only the most delusional of fans would ignore the easy run of fixtures we've had but what we have done is capitalise on it. A few of the big boys have had similarly easy runs in the first ten games but have dropped points that they ought not to have, so you can't take that away from Southampton.
Watching the form of some of the big boys too, I'd say we stand a decent chance of picking up points at a few of them.
Watching the form of some of the big boys too, I'd say we stand a decent chance of picking up points at a few of them.
This pretty much sums up how I feel about Saints.
Next game against Villa should be a win then I think we can give pick up some wins from the Utd, City, Everton and Arsenal games we play at home.
Chelsea just look too strong to get anything from.
At least 8th place finish for us this year but will be disappointed if we do not get a european place either through league or winning a cup.
Caporegime
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Will certainly be interesting to see what happens in the next 4-5 games. Will they lose the "big" games, if they do can they go right back to winning against burnley or will losing a few games kill their confidence and knock them completely out of form. Will they win some/all of those games or at least play great even if they lose.
They've had a nice run of games, though when looking at the table I think the wings over Swansea and West Ham are bigger games than you would consider them in the previous couple of years, significantly improved teams themselves in good form and playing pretty well. West Ham are a team that beat City, QPR and Liverpool at home before losing convincingly to Southampton... though conversely to West ham/Swansea, Pool/City aren't remotely as good as they were last year.
Just an odd season, if they'd had the same run of games/results to now but it was playing City/Arse/Utd last year I'd say they'd probably lose 2 and draw or win against Utd. This year, all three look winable. Really the way everyone has been playing only Chelsea have the kind of form and quality that I wouldn't expect them to lose.
They've had a nice run of games, though when looking at the table I think the wings over Swansea and West Ham are bigger games than you would consider them in the previous couple of years, significantly improved teams themselves in good form and playing pretty well. West Ham are a team that beat City, QPR and Liverpool at home before losing convincingly to Southampton... though conversely to West ham/Swansea, Pool/City aren't remotely as good as they were last year.
Just an odd season, if they'd had the same run of games/results to now but it was playing City/Arse/Utd last year I'd say they'd probably lose 2 and draw or win against Utd. This year, all three look winable. Really the way everyone has been playing only Chelsea have the kind of form and quality that I wouldn't expect them to lose.
Definition of net profit: the amount by which income from sales is larger than all expenditure (from BusinessDictionary.com)
I saw the above and mis-interpreted but even so it was pretty evident what I meant.
In the case of Nani, his Utd contract is longer than his loan spell - and he seems to be doing well there, and they are happy with him. If sporting agree to purchase him it wont be for anything like the value of his over-inflated contract but Utd might get something for him £5-10m if we are lucky, or possibly value off a player like William Carvalho (who imo would work well in the EPL).
With 18 months left on his current deal Chicharito could sign permanently for RM as a cheap back up option, he hasn't lit up the place it has to be said, but even RM need some "normal" players on the bench.
Tom Cleverley is another matter as his contract length is so short (6 months remaining in Jan) but Everton may still look to get a bargain depending on the situation of Barry (who didn't break his leg, but depending on ligament damage could still be out for some time), and Martinez may still want him anyway as he has done ok at Villa (not sure he can really be blamed for how bad they have been this season). Its quite possible nothing gets done until the summer as well
Then there is the Mata issue - did little to save his place in the squad while Rooney was banned (his major chance (s) ) but scored the winner in a terrible CP display a few days ago. For all his positive stats, some of his actual performances have been woeful for such an expensive player used to the league etc. Supposedly Utd are willing to sell him for £20m with Juve, Atletico and possibly the Lim-backed Valencia all interested at that price.
Totally agree with this, I highly doubt you will be 2nd before kick off on New Year's day, but have no reason to see why you wont be holding your own in the top 5ish.
edit just noticed Utd have Stoke and Southampton back to back in early Dec and early Jan, what a quirk of the fixture list haha
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Caporegime
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Nani may go but it will be a case of paying off his wages with any fee you might get, well most likely with players in that situation. IE Nani has lets say a 120k a week contract, Sporting can afford 60k a week, he has 3 years left on a deal and would lose 9mil by going to Sporting for half the wages. Thus clubs often shove a player out of the door by paying off the player the difference. You could easily find yourself selling him for 10mil and paying him 10mil to leave.
It's quite possible that with 6-12 months of first team football and some form and fitness that he could come back to Utd and be a valuable member of the team so i wouldn't count on him leaving.
Hernandez has started 1 league game, had 4 sub appearances, about 160mins total playing time in the league.... has 3 goals 1 assist. I wouldn't call that normal.
Mata, issue with anyone buying him is again wages, big huge deal for a player who might get flopped out of two top clubs. While he would do better in a lesser league, he's not going to help Juve close the gap in Europe, which is significant, neither can they afford to come remotely close to matching his wages. Pushing Mata out the door would almost certainly require a pay off with it being incredibly unlikely anyone would come close to matching his current wages.
Hernandez is about the only real asset you have to sell who should make money, the other two I doubt will leave in Jan and probably not in summer because there will be a huge lack of interest due to their wages. If they go Utd aren't going to make much off the deals.
It's quite possible that with 6-12 months of first team football and some form and fitness that he could come back to Utd and be a valuable member of the team so i wouldn't count on him leaving.
Hernandez has started 1 league game, had 4 sub appearances, about 160mins total playing time in the league.... has 3 goals 1 assist. I wouldn't call that normal.
Mata, issue with anyone buying him is again wages, big huge deal for a player who might get flopped out of two top clubs. While he would do better in a lesser league, he's not going to help Juve close the gap in Europe, which is significant, neither can they afford to come remotely close to matching his wages. Pushing Mata out the door would almost certainly require a pay off with it being incredibly unlikely anyone would come close to matching his current wages.
Hernandez is about the only real asset you have to sell who should make money, the other two I doubt will leave in Jan and probably not in summer because there will be a huge lack of interest due to their wages. If they go Utd aren't going to make much off the deals.
Absolutely astoundingly well done for plucking random numbers out of the air to suit your own agenda, when you have absolutely no way of knowing how much a (very) bit-part player has been agreed to be paid.
If only we all had strikers that could provide 4 goals /assists inside the length of two matches.
Whether it works at RM or not , Hernandez is a reasonable asset for most levels of club whether its in the EPL or in Europe - he may well not go to any other top tier if Ancelotti doesnt want him, but for most clubs he would be a bargain that will always work his hardest and never cause problems, and he wont be on mega wages either.
All I said was that supposedly Juve and a few other clubs are interested - and at that kind of price it MAY work for them to be able to pay a bit more in wages - but again after his time on the bench at Chelsea, and potentially whatever LvG may (or may not) say to him he may just choose to play whereever he can.
Also with Lim taking over Valencia, there are ways around FFP and valued players being rewarded (as happens in the EPL currently) plus he would be going back to Spain which may be enough right now
And for all anyone knows its quite possible Mata was only ever going to be paid his full (headline) wages once Utd got back into the CL - it would be highly surprising if there wasnt some kind of clause regarding this in his, and every player's contract - in which case he wouldnt be on as high wages as people want to assume. Any win /loss bonus wouldnt be particularly high either for this season....
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Caporegime
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you do understand that using ie or eg generally means giving a rough example or showing a case of the idea you've just stated right, I absolutely was plucking numbers out of the air but by using ie or eg it was entirely clear to anyone who knows english that I wasn't claiming those as accurate numbers(though the numbers are likely to be in the right ballpark for both). There is very little reason for a player to sign a long contract extension unless they are getting a pay rise, if UTD were offering him 60k a week he'd likely just leave and try and get a better deal elsewhere and also more games.
A bit part player at Utd WILL, categorically, make more than a first team key player at Sporting.
The bit about Hernandez, I was simply saying he was better than you were implying with "he hasn't lit the place up", he's been very good when used. I never suggested he wouldn't be an asset, I was basically saying he is likely a bigger asset than you appeared to think he was.
Again you're reading the wrong intention with what I said with regards to Mata, papers imply people want players all the time, it's rubbish. Mata is a player who none of the big teams in Spain(teams who saw him play weekly) wanted, he's not seen as good for Spain, he went to Chelsea and was shoved out the door for not being good enough, he looks like he might get shoved out of the door at Utd for not being good enough.
Why would Valencia or Juve want to buy a player who has failed at the top level for more than they can buy and pay other better players? He's weak, not physical enough, lazy, very poor defensively and only sporadically good offensively. Outside of a good freekick there isn't much too his game. He's a £100k a week 10-15mil player for backup at a top club or first team at a lower club. He has a cushy contract and we see much much more often than not that a player will milk a huge contract rather than leave for first team football. These days it's easy enough to simply go out on loan, have the same wage as normal and see out your contract rather than leave.
90% of players in Mata's situation are either being paid to leave, or see out their contracts either barely playing or on loan, either way they get their money.
A bit part player at Utd WILL, categorically, make more than a first team key player at Sporting.
The bit about Hernandez, I was simply saying he was better than you were implying with "he hasn't lit the place up", he's been very good when used. I never suggested he wouldn't be an asset, I was basically saying he is likely a bigger asset than you appeared to think he was.
Again you're reading the wrong intention with what I said with regards to Mata, papers imply people want players all the time, it's rubbish. Mata is a player who none of the big teams in Spain(teams who saw him play weekly) wanted, he's not seen as good for Spain, he went to Chelsea and was shoved out the door for not being good enough, he looks like he might get shoved out of the door at Utd for not being good enough.
Why would Valencia or Juve want to buy a player who has failed at the top level for more than they can buy and pay other better players? He's weak, not physical enough, lazy, very poor defensively and only sporadically good offensively. Outside of a good freekick there isn't much too his game. He's a £100k a week 10-15mil player for backup at a top club or first team at a lower club. He has a cushy contract and we see much much more often than not that a player will milk a huge contract rather than leave for first team football. These days it's easy enough to simply go out on loan, have the same wage as normal and see out your contract rather than leave.
90% of players in Mata's situation are either being paid to leave, or see out their contracts either barely playing or on loan, either way they get their money.
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It wasn't really or I wouldn't have asked.
Unless I'm mistaken Nani and Hernandez are on season long loans which would make their sales in January highly unlikely. As DM touches on, despite what you might like to think, any sale of Nani wouldn't bring much if any money in. There's not a chance in hell that Sporting or any side that might be interested in him could afford even half his wages - any fee you'll get will go straight to paying him off. There's a reason why he's on loan with Utd paying his wages afterall.
Anyway, as I initially mentioned. Woodward informed investors that Utd had no 'expectations' around January and don't anticipate much capital expenditure (spending). Obviously that doesn't make it impossible but if he told investors that then it's fair to say that Utd don't (or didn't at the time) plan on spending much if anything in January.
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Nani has 6 in 13 for sporting. After a bad start he has become resurgent.
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Yup, it seems like what he needed, a loan, lower pressure, a run of games and to get some form and fitness. it's more likely IMHO that he'll be called back from loan to play for Utd from Jan rather than sold. If not then I think he'll be at Utd next season to play with some form under his belt.
Chambers made a lot of mistakes at CB for us, many went unnoticed as he was new etc. but he's no worse at RB than CB, he looks promising but inexperienced, will almost certainly be a good defender one day but he has mistakes in him for now.
