Gsync/ freesync in VR headset displays?

Also, I've realised/ worked out that the overall resolution of the G2 is nothing like running "x2 4k monitors" like someone earlier posted. The overall resolution that the GPU will have to drive is:

2160 x 2160 x 2 = 9,331,200 pixels

UHD/"4k" (not really 4k as we know) is 3840x2160 = 8,294,400 pixels

So, unless I'm missing something (which is possible as I'm a VR virgin) the G2 is not significantly harder to drive than standard UHD/4k, and a 3090 should easily do the job, no?

Nope. VR headsets aren’t monitors, you have a lens between you and the screen which creates distortion...

Like I said above the headset is designed to work with a render resolution of over 3000x3000 per eye... that’s ~9 million pixels each or 18 million total vs 8.3 million of a 4k screen.

In a really quick high level explanation - in order to have an image look correct after it has passed through the lens it needs to be pre-distorted (called barrel distortion as the end result looks barrel shaped). Since there is currently no mainstream rendering pipeline that outputs a predistorted image, you have to render the scene traditionally to a buffer. That image is then subjected to barrel distortion which involves stretching and enlarging the image. That process requires you to render at a higher resolution otherwise you will end up sub sampling the parts of the image that are being stretched.

Forget what you know about panel resolutions from flatscreen. There is no “native” resolution for VR with current pipelines, if you set 2160x2160 per eye then you are subsampling the entire frame after distortion is applied and clarity suffers significantly. The “optimal” setting is enough that you get a roughly 1:1 rendered to displayed pixel in the most distorted area of the image, so gives the best image quality but still isn’t “native” as you are supersampling all the less distorted areas of the image. On the G2 that optimal setting is a little over 1.4x the linear panel resolution (changes per subpixel, but technically it would require on average around 1.5x to get every last pixel at least 1:1). That is what steam will set as the 100% target for the G2. I forget exactly but it’s something like 3160x3072 per eye.

It’s not quite as straight forward a comparison as that as you can use hidden area masking to reduce (but not eliminate) render load for areas that will be off the screen anyway after distortion which helps a little, but start including that and it gets pretty confusing pretty fast. Then there are certain other technologies that can complicate direct comparisons further like Nvidia’s SMS or the upcoming sampler feedback in DX12U. As a basis for general comparison it’s close enough though - point is you can’t necessarily precisely compare the 18 million vs 8.3 million numbers.

You can run lower render resolution by setting less than 100% resolution but you aren’t then getting what the headset is capable of. Anything less than about 75-80% becomes very noticeable to me in terms of clarity fall off. Between 80-100 it’s still noticeable for me but more subtle. Above 100 you just get improvements to aliasing really rather than more detail.

Anyone know how VR feels at half refresh rate? Is that not a thing? Is a locked 45 FPS ok in VR or is it just vomit inducing? 45 FPS on my gsync ultra wide in flight sim 2020 is perfectly playable to me. Is anything under 90hz 90fps just a no no for vr?

As mentioned the normal course of action for a game that you can't get to run consistently at 90fps would be to use motion vector reprojection to go from 45fps to 90fps in the headset. To work most effectively it does require some headroom, so you'd ideally be able to hit a minimum of 60fps with it disabled and then it'll give you a solid 90fps and do a pretty damn good job in most games of giving you good quality interpolated frames.

Anything else, totally depends on the individual. As mentioned I lock to 30fps with no motion smoothing in MSFS and while I'd like it to be faster it doesn't cause me any sickness... but I've never suffered VR sickness anyway. Others might find that very uncomfortable. If you are going that route of sub 90fps but no motion vector smoothing then it's important to lock the framerate to a sub division of 90 - ie 45 or 30. At 30fps I get each frame displaying for 3 refreshes, so while it's crap (especially looking out the side window) it is at least consistent. If I uncapped with my current settings I'd get around 35fps which would result in some frames displaying for 3 refreshes and some frames displaying for 2, which leads to a much more stuttery result despite the higher FPS.
 
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Few things he doesn't quite get right, but the gist is there.

This is the best video I've seen on it on a more technical level (oldie but a goodie!):

 
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Few things he doesn't quite get right, but the gist is there.

It's barrel distortion explained, for the slow of thinking.
50743309342_f2ff8e8c04_o_d.gif
 
Nope. VR headsets aren’t monitors, you have a lens between you and the screen which creates distortion...

Like I said above the headset is designed to work with a render resolution of over 3000x3000 per eye... that’s ~9 million pixels each or 18 million total vs 8.3 million of a 4k screen.

In a really quick high level explanation - in order to have an image look correct after it has passed through the lens it needs to be pre-distorted (called barrel distortion as the end result looks barrel shaped). Since there is currently no mainstream rendering pipeline that outputs a predistorted image, you have to render the scene traditionally to a buffer. That image is then subjected to barrel distortion which involves stretching and enlarging the image. That process requires you to render at a higher resolution otherwise you will end up sub sampling the parts of the image that are being stretched.

Forget what you know about panel resolutions from flatscreen. There is no “native” resolution for VR with current pipelines, if you set 2160x2160 per eye then you are subsampling the entire frame after distortion is applied and clarity suffers significantly. The “optimal” setting is enough that you get a roughly 1:1 rendered to displayed pixel in the most distorted area of the image, so gives the best image quality but still isn’t “native” as you are supersampling all the less distorted areas of the image. On the G2 that optimal setting is a little over 1.4x panel resolution (changes per subpixel, but technically it would require on average around 1.5x to get every last pixel at least 1:1). That is what steam will set as the 100% target for the G2. I forget exactly but it’s something like 3160x3072 per eye.

It’s not quite as straight forward a comparison as that as you can use hidden area masking to reduce (but not eliminate) render load for areas that will be off the screen anyway after distortion which helps a little, but start including that and it gets pretty confusing pretty fast. Then there are certain other technologies that can complicate direct comparisons further like Nvidia’s SMS or the upcoming sampler feedback in DX12U. As a basis for general comparison it’s close enough though - point is you can’t necessarily precisely compare the 18 million vs 8.3 million numbers.

You can run lower render resolution by setting less than 100% resolution but you aren’t then getting what the headset is capable of. Anything less than about 75-80% becomes very noticeable to me in terms of clarity fall off. Between 80-100 it’s still noticeable for me but more subtle. Above 100 you just get improvements to aliasing really rather than more detail.



As mentioned the normal course of action for a game that you can't get to run consistently at 90fps would be to use motion vector reprojection to go from 45fps to 90fps in the headset. To work most effectively it does require some headroom, so you'd ideally be able to hit a minimum of 60fps with it disabled and then it'll give you a solid 90fps and do a pretty damn good job in most games of giving you good quality interpolated frames.

Anything else, totally depends on the individual. As mentioned I lock to 30fps with no motion smoothing in MSFS and while I'd like it to be faster it doesn't cause me any sickness... but I've never suffered VR sickness anyway. Others might find that very uncomfortable. If you are going that route of sub 90fps but no motion vector smoothing then it's important to lock the framerate to a sub division of 90 - ie 45 or 30. At 30fps I get each frame displaying for 3 refreshes, so while it's crap (especially looking out the side window) it is at least consistent. If I uncapped with my current settings I'd get around 35fps which would result in some frames displaying for 3 refreshes and some frames displaying for 2, which leads to a much more stuttery result despite the higher FPS.

Cheers flyboy. That makes a lot of sense. I’m familiar with a lot of the principles you talk about there, Just the specifics of VR are all new to me so it’s interesting and a bit of a learning curve.
You really seem to know your onions when it comes to VR, I could be tapping you for more info hope that’s ok!?

I’m a bit trepidatious now about ordering the G2. It feels like even the 3090 is a long long way off from running a VR experience as it should be with such a high res display. Thinking now I might cancel and go for a used Rift S maybe? Much less demanding resolution. Thing is, I see no point going half arsed into VR. I game at 4K, hdr with ray tracing now. If I’m going VR I want the fidelity to be worth it, otherwise I won’t use it I already know.

Given the sheer pixel count the G2 has to drive, how is any game playable at 90hz native, even on a 3090 - basically “Double 4K” at 90fps. You have to run games at basic low settings yes?
 
Ok another separate question then I’ll call it a night....

DLSS. Total game changer for me since getting a 3090 ampere and experiencing it for the first time.
Seriously impressive tech that takes the burden off high res gaming with ray tracing. So, can this/ will this be used for VR games? It would makes the ultra ultra high res of the G2 much more attainable at the high frame rates needed for the best experience.
 
Not really no... Like I said you can't quite draw a direct comparison due to masking and other confounding factors.

I would say the majority of my VR specific games run just fine at 100%, some even higher. They tend to be well optimised for VR's needs and generally less demanding. Also in flat land look at games like doom eternal - that runs at something like 200fps on a 3090 in 4k in Nightmare Quality and is a great looking game. So basically it just depends on the game!

Alyx is a beautiful example of this where it's a genuinely incredible looking game but because it's been built specifically for VR by the wizards at valve it runs magnificently at 100% and high settings even with dynamic resolution scaling turned off. Onward for example I even run at max settings and 120%. In fact I'm not sure there are any VR specific games I run at below 100% since getting the 3090 now that I think about it...

Traditional games with VR modes such as most sims are another matter (often at least partly because they use deferred rendering which is just a bit of a pig in VR) and here you just need to play around. AMS2 for example I can run fairly easily at 90fps with something like 80% resolution and medium settings... looks great. Alternatively I can run 100% with some higher settings and reproject from 45 and that also works pretty well but I just prefer native 90fps with a little sacrifice. the notoriously hard to run in VR ACC again I can run at 90fps (you won't with that CPU) but that took A LOT of ******* about with settings to get it both sharp and consistant at 90fps. Again there's the option to drop to 45 and reproject...

IL2 and DCS both are running at 100% and 45fps with fantastic reprojection. Only see artefacts in real edge cases and if you are searching hard for it. For those two I don't find any real downside to running at 45fps and using motion vector.

MSFS is just a bag of hurt all round as it stands, but it's early days and there is a big update coming this summer with the move to DX12 which might (or might not) change things significantly. Incredible experience with so much potential, but utter nightmare from a performance standpoint and reprojection from 30fps just sucks imo... wobble wobble. I am however again running at 100% both in OXR res and in game res, picture quality is good but you can't make the jump up to a reliable and sustainable 45fps no matter what settings you compromise. I'd guess in VR your CPU will become limiting too before you even see 40fps. All that said it's still one of my go-to games which tells you just how good it is being *inside* the game.

Your logic re the RiftS is somewhat misplaced. Even if you run both at the same resolution the G2 will look better due to less screendoor effect... You also just need to accept that currently you won't be able to get the same level of fidelity you can get on a simple 4k monitor but the immersion you gain simply utterly overcomes that for the majority of people that try it. For years with the CV1 and the Quest I was longing for better VR displays to make the experience better... now with the G2 I'm longing for better GPUs lol.

Honestly I'd just jump in if you find it even slightly interesting and can spare the cash. There's nothing that says you have to give up flat screen gaming! You might get hit by the number 35 bus to London tomorrow never having experienced it and that would be a real shame. VR now with headsets like the Q2, Index and G2 is in a really usable place and far ahead from where it was even a few years ago.

This always comes to mind when the discussion about waiting for things to get better comes up:

HNedX17.jpg
 
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Ok another separate question then I’ll call it a night....

DLSS. Total game changer for me since getting a 3090 ampere and experiencing it for the first time.
Seriously impressive tech that takes the burden off high res gaming with ray tracing. So, can this/ will this be used for VR games? It would makes the ultra ultra high res of the G2 much more attainable at the high frame rates needed for the best experience.

DLSS2.1 can run in VR but no games currently implement it. I suspect just a matter of time since it's now a UE4 plug in and a lot of VR games are built on UE4... different matter for existing games that would need to move to a new branch, but if someone was building a new VR game now on UE4 I can't imagine why they wouldn't avail themselves of the plugin.

@drakulton - hah, bit like the bloke down the pub explanation I guess!
 
Cheers flyboy. That makes a lot of sense. I’m familiar with a lot of the principles you talk about there, Just the specifics of VR are all new to me so it’s interesting and a bit of a learning curve.
You really seem to know your onions when it comes to VR, I could be tapping you for more info hope that’s ok!?

I’m a bit trepidatious now about ordering the G2. It feels like even the 3090 is a long long way off from running a VR experience as it should be with such a high res display. Thinking now I might cancel and go for a used Rift S maybe? Much less demanding resolution. Thing is, I see no point going half arsed into VR. I game at 4K, hdr with ray tracing now. If I’m going VR I want the fidelity to be worth it, otherwise I won’t use it I already know.

Given the sheer pixel count the G2 has to drive, how is any game playable at 90hz native, even on a 3090 - basically “Double 4K” at 90fps. You have to run games at basic low settings yes?

Have you played any VR at all yet?

Don't go for the Rift S. There are three headsets out now worth buying, The Quest 2, Reverb G2, Valve Index.

This is my simple breakdown.

If you want the best black levels with the widest FOV and arguably the best controllers, get the Valve Index.

If you want the best clarity and highest resolution, get the Reverb G2. ( This is the probably the best choice if you are mainly playing Sim games)

If you want the best all rounder with the ability to play games anywhere, and PC games wirelessly. Get the Quest 2.

Since you mainly plan to play flight sims, the Reverb G2 is the best option. And, you have to stop comparing pancake games with VR games. I guess that's not fair as if you haven't tried VR, then you can't know what it's like.

Buy the Reverb G2, start flight sim, be amazed. It's the difference between watching a game on a screen compared to actually been in the game, sitting in the cockpit.
 
Have you played any VR at all yet?

Don't go for the Rift S. There are three headsets out now worth buying, The Quest 2, Reverb G2, Valve Index.

This is my simple breakdown.

If you want the best black levels with the widest FOV and arguably the best controllers, get the Valve Index.

If you want the best clarity and highest resolution, get the Reverb G2. ( This is the probably the best choice if you are mainly playing Sim games)

If you want the best all rounder with the ability to play games anywhere, and PC games wirelessly. Get the Quest 2.

Since you mainly plan to play flight sims, the Reverb G2 is the best option. And, you have to stop comparing pancake games with VR games. I guess that's not fair as if you haven't tried VR, then you can't know what it's like.

Buy the Reverb G2, start flight sim, be amazed. It's the difference between watching a game on a screen compared to actually been in the game, sitting in the cockpit.

Not yet bud no. I strapped a first gen oculus on my face for some awful corporate ‘app’ about 5 years ago, but never gamed in VR no. Like the cartoon flyboy posted above, I’ve always been keen but waited until I thought the quality was good enough to dive in! I think that time is here now though, but it sounds like the pc hardware grunt required to get the best of it might be a gen or 2 behind, as is often the way.

And I ordered the G2 yesterday from HP, should come in the next few days. Lots to play with and I weirdly enjoy experimenting and fine tuning stuff to get the best performance, so I’ll probably spend more time fannying around with settings rather than gaming. Sad but true.
 
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Not yet bud no. I strapped a first gen oculus on my face for some awful corporate ‘app’ about 5 years ago, but never gamed in VR no. Like the cartoon flyboy posted above, I’ve always been keen but waited until I thought the quality was good enough to dive in! I think that time is here now though, but it sounds like the pc hardware grunt required to get the best of it might be a gen or 2 behind, as is often the way.

And I ordered the G2 yesterday from HP, should come in the next few days. Lots to play with and I weirdly enjoy experimenting and fine tuning stuff to get the best performance, so I’ll probably spend more time fannying around with settings rather than gaming. Sad but true.

sorry, replying across multiple threads!! :p

Oh, I think once you get the taste of proper VR and the "reality" it brings, you will be wanting to fly as much as possible. And, if you like configuring things, VR got you covered there too.
 
One Gsync note. I turn Gsync and vsync off for my monitor in Nvidia control panel when doing VR stuff. 60hz monitor and 90hz headset. It may be something that doesn't affect all set ups but it used to cause me much weirdness before I worked out why it was happening. I do it out of habit now. Was never an issue with a 75hz monitor and 72hz headset.
 
One Gsync note. I turn Gsync and vsync off for my monitor in Nvidia control panel when doing VR stuff. 60hz monitor and 90hz headset. It may be something that doesn't affect all set ups but it used to cause me much weirdness before I worked out why it was happening. I do it out of habit now. Was never an issue with a 75hz monitor and 72hz headset.

That's something to think about. Is it worth disabling other monitors altogether when VR gaming? On a side note I run my main ultrawide gsync monitor at 90Hz anyway, so it may get along well with a 90Hz headset. I do however have a small 8 inch lcd monitor clamped to the side at 60Hz that I have all my HWinfo widgets stats running on though, so that might be an issue. Is it generally a known problem to have multiple monitors of different Hz connected along with a VR headset at the same time? Hope not...
 
I've got the main monitor which is a 4k 60 freesync and an old one that I just use for pallettes and stuff if doing arty things, so that's generally off anyway if I'm gaming.
Don't know if it's a known issue as I haven't seen much mention of it. If I leave gsync on though I get the headset locked to a stuttery 60fps. Just something to watch out for if you get weird results.

You'll want your main monitor on anyway, you might want to mess with settings and it won't cause any real overhead.
 
Right then, just had a fiddle with the settings and a quick run about in skyrim. If I have Gsync set to Full screen mode only and vsync set to use the application setting then vr works fine even with both monitors on.
Vsync on or Gsync full screen and windowed which are my normal settings both cause me issues. I've learned a thing. I can have the rest of the day off now.
 
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