Guardiola - Bayern Munich manager!

[drunkenmaster]

People do underestimate the job he did. The brilliance was there at Barcelona but he distilled it.

I wouldn't agree with that really, as he took over Messi went from too young and bit part player to playing almost every game every season and being phenomenally good and there were more and more players coming through from the youth system, and those that had already come through were hitting their peak, Xavi/Iniesta and co. Because there were increasingly more youth system guys, you just had a point in time where a huge amount of the squad, first team, backup, rotation, everyone who trains/plays together many had done so for 5-10 years, and they had everyone on the same page at the same time.

I really do think it would have taken a monumental screw up to not do exactly as well as he did during those years. Lets also not forget that of all the buying he did, a lot wasn't very good.

damn, I forgot how damn little Ibra was sold to AC for, 60mil to 5mil, in a year, ridiculous frankly. that CB was bought for 22mil and sold for 12mil, Hleb for 14mil and seemingly got about a mil in loan fee's, spent 30mil on Alves, and at the same time bought another 15mil right back, who was later let go after about another 1mil in loan fee's.

His transfer market dealings were by and large disasterous. In terms of what he did for the team, it wasn't much, the distilling was the result of more and more players taught to play the same way being in the first team and the Messi factor simply can't be overlooked.

Not to mention Real were pretty poo over the same period leaving it wide open. Personally I think Barca have become less entertaining over his time, less direct, largely because they had Eto'o, then Ibra, then Villa/Fabregas, with Messi playing increasingly more upfront rather than right wing, and now plays upfront but so deep that they often pass rather than pass behind the defence because Messi is so rarely making that run.

In the the two seasons before and the season he took over Messi played 34/40/54 games, scoring 19/20/42 goals with 3/14/18 assists... basically he had his two breaking into the team years then his "i've arrived" year where Messi got truly awesome, there really is a whole bunch of reasons almost any manager would have done excellently, and Guardiola's transfer record is really incredibly poor, he could be a great manager, I just don't think taking over Barca when the worlds best player came into his own with the worlds best squad, and then spending a crapload of money.... proves it.

 

[Tummy]

I find two things very funny; this idea that some how Guardiola only did well at Barcelona because, you know, anyone could manage that team haha. Also, this idea that all managers some how want to come to 'THE BEST LEAGUE THE WORLD EVER SINCE FOOTBALL BEGAN IN 1992', hell there are some massive clubs and very good leagues across the world and in Europe.

There are maybe, only two clubs in England that would tempt Guardiola, one is managed by Rodgers and going through a transitional phase and the other has that old Fergie guy in charge. Bayern are a massive, massive European club.

 

[Tummy]

I wouldn't agree with that really, as he took over Messi went from too young and bit part player to playing almost every game every season and being phenomenally good and there were more and more players coming through from the youth system, and those that had already come through were hitting their peak, Xavi/Iniesta and co. Because there were increasingly more youth system guys, you just had a point in time where a huge amount of the squad, first team, backup, rotation, everyone who trains/plays together many had done so for 5-10 years, and they had everyone on the same page at the same time.

I really do think it would have taken a monumental screw up to not do exactly as well as he did during those years. Lets also not forget that of all the buying he did, a lot wasn't very good.

damn, I forgot how damn little Ibra was sold to AC for, 60mil to 5mil, in a year, ridiculous frankly. that CB was bought for 22mil and sold for 12mil, Hleb for 14mil and seemingly got about a mil in loan fee's, spent 30mil on Alves, and at the same time bought another 15mil right back, who was later let go after about another 1mil in loan fee's.

His transfer market dealings were by and large disasterous. In terms of what he did for the team, it wasn't much, the distilling was the result of more and more players taught to play the same way being in the first team and the Messi factor simply can't be overlooked.

Not to mention Real were pretty poo over the same period leaving it wide open. Personally I think Barca have become less entertaining over his time, less direct, largely because they had Eto'o, then Ibra, then Villa/Fabregas, with Messi playing increasingly more upfront rather than right wing, and now plays upfront but so deep that they often pass rather than pass behind the defence because Messi is so rarely making that run.

In the the two seasons before and the season he took over Messi played 34/40/54 games, scoring 19/20/42 goals with 3/14/18 assists... basically he had his two breaking into the team years then his "i've arrived" year where Messi got truly awesome, there really is a whole bunch of reasons almost any manager would have done excellently, and Guardiola's transfer record is really incredibly poor, he could be a great manager, I just don't think taking over Barca when the worlds best player came into his own with the worlds best squad, and then spending a crapload of money.... proves it.

Where in all the lady caves do you pull these numbers from?

Zlatan was signed in a deal worth €69.5 million and was sold for €24 million.

 

[jonney_joop]

I find two things very funny; this idea that some how Guardiola only did well at Barcelona because, you know, anyone could manage that team haha. Also, this idea that all managers some how want to come to 'THE BEST LEAGUE THE WORLD EVER SINCE FOOTBALL BEGAN IN 1992', hell there are some massive clubs and very good leagues across the world and in Europe.

There are maybe, only two clubs in England that would tempt Guardiola, one is managed by Rodgers and going through a transitional phase and the other has that old Fergie guy in charge. Bayern are a massive, massive European club.

How come the guy who has taken over for barca this season got them ticking again? is there current manager OMFG BEST MANAGER ever material too?

The real challenge is managing a average side and turning them into greats.

Fergie and wenger are the only ones who have proven their worth much more then Guadiola hench many in here believe Guadiola is no better if not worse then wenger

 

[Tummy]

How come the guy who has taken over for barca this season got them ticking again? is there current manager OMFG BEST MANAGER ever material too?

Nope, I've not claimed that either Guardiola or Vilanova are 'best manager ever' material, but they're clearly very talented managers. There was a 'lul' in Barcelona post Guardiola and they have now picked up again, playing very good, attacking dynamic football again under Vilanova, a slightly different style and system to that which they had under Guardiola but still very similar.

The real challenge is managing a average side and turning them into greats.

Not really, or rather, not any more that taking a club at the top and keeping them there, or taking a sleeping giant back to the dizzying heights. This is something that confuses me, why is say, managing a smaller club and improving them more of a challenge that managing a team and the top and dominating.

Fergie and wenger are the only ones who have proven their worth much more then Guadiola hench many in here believe Guadiola is no better if not worse then wenger

'Only' managers thave have proved their worth more? Are we not counting managers outside the Premier League?

Mourinho, Del Bosque, Ancelotti et cetra?

 

[Snax]

This smacks of self doubt.

He doesn't have 100% confidence that he can reproduce the Barca model from scratch at anything other than the an already excellent and top performing club. Bayern already have a good youth development programme and have the funds, prestige and players to give Guardiola the best chance he will get outside Barcelona at recreating that play style and performance output.

If he is successful at Bayern, he will have to turn down insane cash from the oil clubs but he might then have the belief that he can turn around an AC, Malaga, Arsenal

 

[Tummy]

How could he reproduce the 'Barcelona' model from scrath though? Certain in this country you are talking about, what I would say is a generational change in attitude to football, not to mention the huge changing to coaching within a club. He could well start the ball rolling but it would not be for a very, very long time he could see the fruits of his labour?

Bayern are a huge club, as you say, good youth system, money, stability and a good set up and squad. Why wouldn't he go there? Why does he need to 'prove' himself taking over a poorer club?

It's not 'more' of a challenge, it's still a huge challenge, it's just a different sort.

 

[Leeroy Jenkins]

I wouldn't agree with that really, as he took over Messi went from too young and bit part player to playing almost every game every season and being phenomenally good and there were more and more players coming through from the youth system, and those that had already come through were hitting their peak, Xavi/Iniesta and co. Because there were increasingly more youth system guys, you just had a point in time where a huge amount of the squad, first team, backup, rotation, everyone who trains/plays together many had done so for 5-10 years, and they had everyone on the same page at the same time.

I really do think it would have taken a monumental screw up to not do exactly as well as he did during those years. Lets also not forget that of all the buying he did, a lot wasn't very good.

damn, I forgot how damn little Ibra was sold to AC for, 60mil to 5mil, in a year, ridiculous frankly. that CB was bought for 22mil and sold for 12mil, Hleb for 14mil and seemingly got about a mil in loan fee's, spent 30mil on Alves, and at the same time bought another 15mil right back, who was later let go after about another 1mil in loan fee's.

His transfer market dealings were by and large disasterous. In terms of what he did for the team, it wasn't much, the distilling was the result of more and more players taught to play the same way being in the first team and the Messi factor simply can't be overlooked.

Not to mention Real were pretty poo over the same period leaving it wide open. Personally I think Barca have become less entertaining over his time, less direct, largely because they had Eto'o, then Ibra, then Villa/Fabregas, with Messi playing increasingly more upfront rather than right wing, and now plays upfront but so deep that they often pass rather than pass behind the defence because Messi is so rarely making that run.

In the the two seasons before and the season he took over Messi played 34/40/54 games, scoring 19/20/42 goals with 3/14/18 assists... basically he had his two breaking into the team years then his "i've arrived" year where Messi got truly awesome, there really is a whole bunch of reasons almost any manager would have done excellently, and Guardiola's transfer record is really incredibly poor, he could be a great manager, I just don't think taking over Barca when the worlds best player came into his own with the worlds best squad, and then spending a crapload of money.... proves it.

i'll agree with u about the transfers, but Barcelona were playing very poor the season before he came in, he brought in the possession game which changed football completely he won 14 trophies in 4 years, there is no way u can have any doubts about the guy for me he is no.1 right now, he also got rid of Ronaldinho and Deco when he came in and brought some youngsters through.

 

[Newbie007]

I just don't think taking over Barca when the worlds best player came into his own with the worlds best squad, and then spending a crapload of money.... proves it.

So he can't take any credit for the player Messi became then? Nor Fergie for Ronaldo, Wenger for Henry etc? You dont half spout some ******

 

[Snax]

How could he reproduce the 'Barcelona' model from scrath though? Certain in this country you are talking about, what I would say is a generational change in attitude to football, not to mention the huge changing to coaching within with the c lub. He could well start the ball rolling but it would not be for a very, very long time he could see the fruits of his labour?

Bayern are a huge club, as you say, good youth system, money, stability and a good set up and squad. Why wouldn't he go there? Why does he need to 'prove' himself taking over a poorer club?

It's not 'more' of a challenge, it's still a huge challenge, it's just a different sort.

I don't think the Barca model needs huge resources and cash to develop, though it does need time. What Bayern gives him is the safety net that will allow success if he is unable to reproduce the model.

At this point, the guy has won everything worth winning bar the world cup. Bayern has a team that will challenge for major honours under any top coach; I have no doubt that he will continue Bayern's impressive form with success following.

This success will bring him time to tinker and put together his brand of football again at a different club. He will have resources to look at the developmental structure of the club and improve it so that it provides youth players who are synchronous with the first team style of play.

If, for whatever reason, he is actually unable to achieve what he wants, Bayern have oodles of cash so that he can buy his way out of trouble.

He has made a rod for his own back because under no circumstance should he be uunsuccessful there. The team is already awesome, the moneyis there , the structure is there, the prestige is there.

I would hope that having seen that the Barcelona model effectively needs time and knowledge rather than cash, he does well at Bayern and subsequently looks to take a club who really needs an overhaul and works there. Though Barcelona pumps money into star players, I imagine most clubs would appreciate a youth system that fed into the first team properly and an attractive style of play being the core. Guardiola has seen all the components in the system that has allowed that to happen. I think it would be awesome if henow ppropagated that knowledge around the globe.
His career should really be the reverse of most managers; he has coached the best team, in order to keep challenging himself he should move down the leagues incrementally

 

[FrankJH]

I find two things very funny; this idea that some how Guardiola only did well at Barcelona because, you know, anyone could manage that team haha. Also, this idea that all managers some how want to come to 'THE BEST LEAGUE THE WORLD EVER SINCE FOOTBALL BEGAN IN 1992', hell there are some massive clubs and very good leagues across the world and in Europe.

There are maybe, only two clubs in England that would tempt Guardiola, one is managed by Rodgers and going through a transitional phase and the other has that old Fergie guy in charge. Bayern are a massive, massive European club.

Well there isnt that much competition in Spain beyond the top two (mainly thanks to the 90%+ share they have in tv money between Barca and RM).
They have fantastic players in their own right, and some of them are from their youth setups, so thats fair enough but think about the mega money transfers they do every year or two which is funded by this tv monopoly.

I have to admit I have no idea about the tv situation in Germany, but BM have been near the top if not AT the top for decades it seems. There are a couple of other clubs getting close, but doesnt 1/2 of the National team play for BM (and if they arent the best in Europe they are certainly 2nd best, with a pretty young side compared to Spain who have a few more significantly closer to retirement).

Surely the EPL is more competitive in general than these two (yes, there are things that still annoy about inconsistancy in decision making - but maybe its just as rife in La Liga /Bundesligue (sp?) )

Would you get the likes of the German /Spanish version of QPR beating Chelsea at home? I guess shock results happen everywhere, but it does feel as though its more common here than other european leagues.

Again there are wonderful players coming out of France, but Im not sure their league as a whole is up to the same technical ability (of those players coming over, they show promise and adapt very well but they DO have to adapt to the better skills apparent in every game in relative terms imo)

There are also fantastic kids coming out of Brazil and South America, but the leagues themselves? The best players from around the world come to Europe for a reason (and it isnt just money). There will always be a debate between the Spanish /German and English leagues - and thats fair enough, but leagues outside Europe are either for kids growing up or for retirement plans. The USA cant even be considered until the continent gets serious as a whole about "Soccer" instead of Basketball /Baseball

So he can't take any credit for the player Messi became then? Nor Fergie for Ronaldo, Wenger for Henry etc? You dont half spout some ******

Its possible to answer - maybe Messi would be the same player if he had been in Bayern's youth team instead of Barca's, maybe Ronaldo would be the player today if he had joined Real Sociadad instead of Man Utd. Its impossible to say either way.

Of course the right environment for that player helps (and a totally different environment for another top player may work just as well for them) - I think PG and SAF would both thank God that they got a chance to see those players develop at the respective clubs.

 

[drunkenmaster]

So he can't take any credit for the player Messi became then? Nor Fergie for Ronaldo, Wenger for Henry etc? You dont half spout some ******

Messi as a teenager was raved about by everyone in the world before Guardiola went near him, he scored 30 goals in all competitions the year before Guardiola took over, Messi was 98% the final product at that stage.

Likewise Henry was a good player, the only reason he was languishing on the wing was because Wenger turned Henry into a winger when he was a natural striker, the biggest chance Wenger made was UNDOING HIS ORIGINAL MISTAKE. Henry had the pace and skill, no confidence and was playing out of position because of Wenger. He also took all of a few months to be at the top of his game, again do you think 20 years of growing, training and 15 of that playing football was reverse in 3 months by Wenger?

Ronaldo was a pretty different story, he didn't change over the course of a few months, though it was clear from the first day that he had a huge amount of natural talent, he improved under Fergie, but the tricks, shooting were there from day one, they improved but not turned around. Over a few years it was more his decision making, when to shoot, when to do a trick, less diving and the final couple years turning into a freaking ridiculous athlete that made the most difference to his game, however of the three I think Fergie likely had by far the largest influence... or someone on the coaching staff there anyway.

It actually amazes me how someone can think Messi, a star and everyone thinking he was already almost the worlds best scoring 30 goals in his 2 real season but still only starting a little over half the league games, was "made" by a manager who took over at that point. Not least because not all managers take every training session and every conversation with a player about how to improve. Some managers do, some managers let the coaches coach, they are all different.

Cesc was signed and started playing as one of our best players in the first team within a few months... do we think the 16 years before hand meant nothing and the 3 months under Wenger entirely changed this kid? Really?

Messi is Messi, and he'd have become the same player under any manager, simple as that.

However, Henry and Ronaldo improved significantly over the time they were at the club, Messi was a 30 goal a season player before Guardioloa took over, Ronaldo and Henry weren't when they joined and were when they left. Comparing the three players and the impact the manager had on them is daft, as is your argument style of "i'll disprove your point by comparing it to two other players of whom I will imply you suggested the same about.... even though you didn't, wrong by association of the points I completely made up", well done, you have no idea how to discuss things or argue a real point.

 

[drunkenmaster]

Where in all the lady caves do you pull these numbers from?

Zlatan was signed in a deal worth €69.5 million and was sold for €24 million.

http://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/en/fc-barcelona/transfers/verein_131_2010_default_default_alle_a.html

oh boo freaking hoo, I wrongly saw that number and didn't recall that was the loan fee, the transfer fee wasn't listed, and £60million was roughly what it was.

Some people here insist on jumping down the throat of everything I say when there was entirely no reason to, seriously, be honest, £60mil to £20mil is significantly better than 70mil euros to 25mil, does it suddenly seem like epic business? Does it make Guardiola look completely different, no.

Discuss what you thought of Guardiola's transfers and happen to mention that you thought it was a 25mil fee, that would just be two people dicussing stuff on a forum, as I was, but instead you decided to post nothing in discussion but have a go at me for a simple mistake that has no bearing on the outcome.

If he infact cost 25mil and they sold him for 60mil it would make it a good deal, but the actual fee just makes it slightly less awful. Point that out, ask if I got it wrong, but quoting a big post, and bolding and enlarging a part, and having nothing to offer to the discussion, whats the point, seriously?

You know what I do when people post numbers I think are wrong, I continue the discussion, if I think the numbers are so wrong as to entirely change the outcome of someones point, I'll say so, I won't point out the number for the sake of being a douche, without continuing the discussion at all.

I take most peoples numbers to be ballpark anyway, because any given wage, transfer fee, loan fee, signing bonus is usually reported noticeably different by various newspapers and the like. If someone says player X is on 100k a week and papers say anything from 80 to 120k, I don't give a crap, how is that massively changing the point someone is making, if someone says someone is on 30k when the sources all range from 80-120k a week, I'll point that out, but not just to make someone look bad for no reason, only if I want to discuss the point.

 

[Tummy]

Surely the EPL is more competitive in general than these two (yes, there are things that still annoy about inconsistancy in decision making - but maybe its just as rife in La Liga /Bundesligue (sp?) )

I very much disagree, I don't think there is much between the German League and the English League if we are talking about competitiveness.

I still think Spain has the best quality football played, but Germany play some very good football too.

The German League is on the up in a huge way.

I expect the Sky crowd to disagree and tell me the Premier League is better, which is fine, but I think their opinions would change if they sat and watched a lot more European Leagues .

 

[Shamikebab]

The German league is definitely on the rise. I still think the EPL is very slightly stronger overall. I'd fancy United, City, Chelsea, Arsenal and Spurs over the top 5 German clubs (Bayern, Dortmund, Leverkusen, Schalke...Stuttgart maybe?)

 

[drunkenmaster]

I think Bayern/Dortmund have the fairly easy beating of any of our clubs at the moment, and you might well be underestimating the other few you've listed. I don't really care who is considered the best league, Spanish people think its La liga, Germans think its theres and English people think its ours, unsurprising, fact is we'll watch more EPL games regardless as its more interesting to watch the national league which gets more media coverage.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/...ardsons-european-football-papers-review-video

I thought this was quite interesting, the first story is Italian and German papers had Guardiola cancelling meetings in Italy to go talk to Bayern on monday, the rest of the papers were all saying Guardiola almost certain for Bayern on Tuesday, and on Wednesday the English press blew up with storys of Guardiola loving the EPL and was sure to manage here...... English press is **** and completely unbelievable basically.

 

[Trusty]

Inherits a quality squad in a poor league where Dortmund are struggling this season, can't really fail.

Poor league? It's definitely not.

i'll agree with u about the transfers, but Barcelona were playing very poor the season before he came in, he brought in the possession game which changed football completely he won 14 trophies in 4 years, there is no way u can have any doubts about the guy for me he is no.1 right now, he also got rid of Ronaldinho and Deco when he came in and brought some youngsters through.

Yeah exactly. You'll learn not listen to DM, he has no idea about football and thinks he's knows everything.

Drunkenmaster - here's a somthing for you..

The best football ever witnessed was installed by Pep. It's as simple as that...

 

[Trusty]

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