Happy in my role but angling for a promotion, been approached by a recruiter...

[Scam]

Ok guys bear with me. I've been in my role for nearly 5 years now. It's a wonderful company, easily the best I have ever worked for. I really enjoy the role although it has been sort-of sliding into something else as we've rolled out a new system which can grate a bit. However there's a lot of flexibility into making the role my own, so the blip might be temporary. Overall I were to be offered a promotion here and a token payrise I would be more than happy. I'd be very happy.

I got approached by a recruiter on Linkedin who after one email promptly left his company and disappeared The job sounded interested so I'm lining up an interview directly with the company. However it's vendor-side of my industry which is where I was previously to my current role (which is content owner/customer side). Obviously I can't speak for every company, but the difference generally is night and day. I look back on my previous role in vendor side and don't know why I put up with it for so long. We were treated like ****, the pay was **** etc.

However, the role itself sounds interesting and makes good use of my skillset. And seen as the recruiter approached me I know the pay would be at minimum - doubling my current salary. Not to be sniffed at. And the role would obviously be a lot more senior than my last venture vendor-side.

Sooooo. I'm lining up the interview.. my boss has always said let him know if I ever see other jobs that are interesting etc. he plays the supportive manager sometimes but I don't know if he means it, or what. I don't know whether to perhaps tell him I got approached and thought I'd go to the interview 'out of interest' and hope that's enough to make him think "actually my guy is employable elsewhere but I want to keep him, let's talk promotion". Or perhaps should I play hardball, if I get an offer simply present him with that and hope they counter-offer?

I've never been in the position to play my current employer a bit... I just don't know how to handle it. Honestly in an ideal world I'd want my boss to turn around, offer me a promotion and I'd be happy for another couple of years (and be infinitely more employable as well)...

Any thoughts? How much weight do you put behind working for a great, stable company with fantastic benefits and worklife - in comparison to a bump in salary and getting on up the ladder? Or, how best to use this situation to my advantage?

Thanks.

 

[dowie]

I'd get the offer tbh.. especially if they're potentially paying double.

Unless you're drastically underpaid in your current role or this promotion is going to make a significant difference then you'd probably want to think now about whether you'd stay in your current role for a smaller rise vs this much bigger rise from the vendor - also when mentioning the offer/telling them that you're thinking of resigning (or straight up resigning) then don't make it purely about the money - if you do then given the jump in pay is apparently massive then they might not even bother with a counter offer.

You can mention being approached to your boss but that is a bit bad if the offer turns into nothing, that's perhaps more something to do if you're a known quantity for some other employer and you know they'd actually take you rather than this situation where you've simply been offered an interview via a recruiter.

 

[Scam]

The role is a big step up, hence the massive pay rise. Obviously I'm not guaranteed an offer, I'd be pleasantly surprised if I got one. For example it has direct reports (of which I don't currently), it has a lot of elements of business development (and is a bit sales-y) of which I don't do now. So it's a big ask but they do want to interview me. Those parts of the job are unusual to be paired with my technical skillset, the recruiter seemed to suggest they were struggling to find candidates with both anyway. Probably hence why they very quickly shortlisted me (even without the bus-dev/sales experience).

I'm definitely over-thinking it but I guess I'm just really scared to leave my current company. I can't over-state how good it is to work for. We're a film company, so always get invited to premieres, events. They do a lot of (free, obviously!) social events. Hire out whole up-scale restaurants for 1500 people with everything laid on. That sort of thing happens a few times per year. But along with that is the 'serious' benefits such free Sky, free Netflix, loads of corporate discounts (cinema tickets, gym etc.) plus , health screening, health insurance, dental etc. When I was vendor-side previously we got none of that. It was the bare minimum required of the company. Obviously I don't know if things have improved or this company runs itself a lot better (I'd hope so) but I'm just wary.

And the payrise might sound awesome, but last time I was vendor side you didn't even get a yearly inflationary payrise.. I'd be wary of that happening. I guess I'm thinking long-term... that said I'm well <40yrs old so perhaps thinking long-term should mean getting a fat payrise and eventually coming back to a nice company like my current one for the benefits, pension etc.

Anyway, it's more about how to handle it with my boss. I want to use it as leverage but unsure how best to do it. I guess I'll have to wait and see if I get an offer. If I don't I'd be happy to go to him and tell him I'd interviewed and it "wasn't suitable" so at least that takes the pressure out of it. If I do get an offer then well...

 

[dowie]

And the payrise might sound awesome, but last time I was vendor side you didn't even get a yearly inflationary payrise.. I'd be wary of that happening. I guess I'm thinking long-term... that said I'm well <40yrs old so perhaps thinking long-term should mean getting a fat payrise and eventually coming back to a nice company like my current one for the benefits, pension etc.

Yup - that's the main thing, the way the job market works is rather dubious at times but once you've locked in some salary then that is the basis from which your next job offer gets made.

I wouldn't worry about your yearly pay rises if you're getting your salary doubled just for moving... how many yearly pay rises in your current place does that equate to? Just jump ship again in 2 -3 years.

Anyway, it's more about how to handle it with my boss. I want to use it as leverage but unsure how best to do it. I guess I'll have to wait and see if I get an offer. If I don't I'd be happy to go to him and tell him I'd interviewed and it "wasn't suitable" so at least that takes the pressure out of it. If I do get an offer then well...

If the issue is your career direction in your current company then just ask for a meeting with your boss and discuss that, don't be fobbed off with vague assurances, get them to set goals/deadlines etc.. if necessary or to tell you straight up if your plans/ambitions aren't realistic. If they don't stick to their side then move on... I'd see that as a separate issue to this specific offer to some extent.

It is perhaps worth considering now - what happens if your boss offers you A etc..

I think the idea of deliberately telling someone you're going for an interview and then later (if you don't either get the job or don't get the reaction you wanted from your boss) having to make up an excuse is a really bad one - it doesn't look good at all.

 

[Scam]

I wouldn't worry about your yearly pay rises if you're getting your salary doubled just for moving... how many yearly pay rises in your current place does that equate to? Just jump ship again in 2 -3 years.

Yes. Agreed. I guess I think I was just trying to show the differences in one company from my current maybe.

I think the idea of deliberately telling someone you're going for an interview and then later (if you don't either get the job or don't get the reaction you wanted from your boss) having to make up an excuse is a really bad one - it doesn't look good at all.

So you're saying if I don't get an offer perhaps I shouldn't tell my current boss? I'm not sure I agree, I can see an upside of telling him I was approached directly - that makes me sound wanted in other places. And it also might make him think we should discuss my role and the next step.

Anyone else have any thoughts?

 

[dowie]

So you're saying if I don't get an offer perhaps I shouldn't tell my current boss?

I'm not sure I agree, I can see an upside of telling him I was approached directly - that makes me sound wanted in other places. And it also might make him think we should discuss my role and the next step.

Eh? If you don't get an offer then I'd definitely not tell him - how does it make you should wanted if you get rejected?

There is only an upside to telling him if you are actually wanted, you don't know that yet if this is just an offer of an interview via a recruiter from some company you're not already known by.

My point is that it would be a bit different if they know you, you have a reputation with them etc.. and the interview is more of a formality/or discussion re: what they could pay to poach you etc.. but if it is just a standard interview, well that is likely something you or a colleague could have arranged yourself by reaching out to any number of recruiters on linked in.

 

[Scam]

Eh? If you don't get an offer then I'd definitely not tell him - how does it make you should wanted if you get rejected?

Well I wouldn't tell him I was rejected. I'd be vague and say it wasn't right for me. In my mind that shows willing to stay at my current company whilst also showing that other companies are interested in me.

My point is that it would be a bit different if they know you, you have a reputation with them etc..

Well it's a small-ish industry, I've met the hiring manager before. So it's probably somewhere sort-of inbetween what you're saying.

Hmn

 

[jaybee]

To simplify, you wait for a firm, proper offer and then play your cards. Every, time.

 

[Rids]

To simplify, you wait for a firm, proper offer and then play your cards. Every, time.

I'd say in 90% of cases this is the right advice, a couple of years ago I started making noise when I was interviewing (mainly because I didn't really care if I stayed or not and was confident I could find work on similar pay with very little struggle) - this worked out for me as they gave me a 25% pay bump to tie me down. However thats a long odds play, and if you're in a job you enjoy then play the odds and do not do this, the majority of the time this will backfire.

 

[Scam]

Yeah exactly. Part of me thinks if I put my boss on a sort-of time pressure to give me a promotion/payrise (because he knows I've got the offer in my back pocket), he'll just take the easy way out go "oh well that sounds like a really good step for you" and tell me take the new job

 

[dowie]

Yeah exactly. Part of me thinks if I put my boss on a sort-of time pressure to give me a promotion/payrise (because he knows I've got the offer in my back pocket), he'll just take the easy way out go "oh well that sounds like a really good step for you" and tell me take the new job

So what?

Take both approaches - first ask without the leverage, just have a meeting and discuss your future in the company how you can achieve whatever goal it is you're after. If that works and you're happy then problem solved. If it doesn't work then go for the new job, get the leverage and be prepared to walk away if you're still unable to progress where you currently are.

 

[AHarvey]

If it takes you having to leave or the threat of leaving for an employer to want to offer you something better than they don't really value you.

 

[mid_gen]

Trying to fish for a counter-offer by job-hunting elsewhere is a very risky play if you really value the company you work at.

I've had success just having straight up honest conversations with bosses in the past. "I've been in this role for X time, I have this experience and that demonstrated competency, it doesn't look good for my CV if I'm not progressing"....that kind of thing. I've got promotions and payrises from having these conversations.

Honestly if someone pulled the "I've got an offer elsewhere, make me a counter-offer", I'd just wave them goodbye....they're obviously wanting to leave so I don't want someone on the team that I can't trust is committed and worth investing in.

 

[EvilRob]

Trying to fish for a counter-offer by job-hunting elsewhere is a very risky play if you really value the company you work at.

I've had success just having straight up honest conversations with bosses in the past. "I've been in this role for X time, I have this experience and that demonstrated competency, it doesn't look good for my CV if I'm not progressing"....that kind of thing. I've got promotions and payrises from having these conversations.

Honestly if someone pulled the "I've got an offer elsewhere, make me a counter-offer", I'd just wave them goodbye....they're obviously wanting to leave so I don't want someone on the team that I can't trust is committed and worth investing in.

Sounds good on paper, but unfortunately many companies just don't work the way you've outlined and counter offers are common. The "well I wouldn't want to work for that company then" argument doesn't really help either as in some industries this is just the modus operandi. Nothing personal in it, but you have to play the game to progress within the same company.

 

[mid_gen]

Sounds good on paper, but unfortunately many companies just don't work the way you've outlined and counter offers are common. The "well I wouldn't want to work for that company then" argument doesn't really help either as in some industries this is just the modus operandi. Nothing personal in it, but you have to play the game to progress within the same company.

It's not on paper, it's actual experience both managing people, and advancing my own career (quite successfully, if I say so myself), in several industries, permanent and contract.

Even in both mercenary environments like fintech contracting, or more 'loyalty'-oriented like game dev, having straight up honest conversations about where you want to go with your career and your motivations, is always going to be preferable to creating a confrontational situation.

Like I said...you come to me with an offer from a competitor....myself and HR may decide it's worth a counter-offer to keep you on board for now, but you're going straight to the back of the queue for further advancement.

 

[Scam]

If it takes you having to leave or the threat of leaving for an employer to want to offer you something better than they don't really value you.

I wouldn't say that's true, it just means in their opinion they value you at your current salary and status. That's always up for discussion though, coming to them with proof you're valued higher elsewhere is a great way to kick-start that conversation and force a re-think on your current employers part. Employers everywhere are good at keeping the status quo, sometimes they need a little nudge.

Like I said...you come to me with an offer from a competitor....myself and HR may decide it's worth a counter-offer to keep you on board for now, but you're going straight to the back of the queue for further advancement.

Sounds like you've been pretty lucky with your employers if all it takes is a request for a promotion to get it. I don't know of any of my peers, in any industry that can do that.

And your point is strange; you'd counter-offer to keep them but stop further advancement? If you counter-offer to keep them then they've achieved what they wanted If you batten down the hatches and make it impossible for them to progress they'll just leave when they feel they're ready for the next step. You've just given the employee exactly what they wanted; which is the next step for now.

After all your talk of 'straight-up honest conversations' it also seems very strange to take offence at an employee coming to you with an outside offer. Maybe they're seeking guidance, not sure the new job fits them. Maybe they are angling for a counter offer. Maybe they honestly don't know what's best. Taking offence at that seems very strange indeed...

Anyway, reason I came into this thread was to update you. I had the interview but the role doesn't sound quite right. It was more of a chat (no HR present), because I'd met the interviewer before, he remembered/knew of me so it was quite informal as it turns out. Keeping it simple, the role was more "line managery" than I had thought (I've never had any direct reports let alone the number they were saying the role came with) so I'm not expecting it to go anywhere. So, with regards to all the talk above - I still believe I should speak to my boss and tell him I was approached for another role. Explain honestly how it didn't turn out to be the right fit for me, and explain how it's been making me think about my progression and blah blah blah.. Thoughts?

 

[mid_gen]

Sounds like you've been pretty lucky with your employers if all it takes is a request for a promotion to get it. I don't know of any of my peers, in any industry that can do that.

You don't just ask and get it. That's what the people that don't get the promotions they want don't understand.

There's a guy on my team that I now manage. Call him Bill. We started at the same level, he was actually on the project for two years before me, and he *really* wanted the seniority. I got promoted past him twice. He asked every single year for promotions, quite forcefully. He did the whole requesting a reference from HR thing (basically telling HR he's looking elsewhere).

The first promotion was a simple "With my experience I should really be at this seniority" conversation. Done.

I spent a year and a half laying the ground work for that promotion, making sure that there wasn't any reasonable way they could deny that I was valuable enough to the team to warrant the promotion. It took hard work, like a project in my free time to ensure I got an 'Outstanding' performance review the year before.

Next promotion to manager, I didn't even have to ask. After the previous bump, I made sure I was demonstrating the required competencies for manager level roles. Taking on extra responsibility here and there, taking time to mentor juniors, went out of my way to do all the boring jobs no-one else wanted. I was the go to guy on the team now, everyone was singing my praises. My manager quits....a couple of weeks later, I get called into a meeting room and offered the manager role.

Bill is absolutely spitting blood. He's been on the project longer dammit, he's got more experience, now he's just seen some new guy waltz past him. Except I didn't waltz past, I worked hard for it.

You gotta make sure you are the first person on the list when HR and hiring managers are considering people for promotions. Do it right and you don't even have to ask for it.

Anyway, I'm quite sure that if I had gone to a competitor for an offer and tried to use that as a negotiating stick *instead* of doing what I described above, I wouldn't have been considered for either promotion. I've never had to do, I've just worked hard to make sure I'm the right guy for the job I want.

 

[EvilRob]

It's not on paper, it's actual experience both managing people, and advancing my own career (quite successfully, if I say so myself), in several industries, permanent and contract.

Even in both mercenary environments like fintech contracting, or more 'loyalty'-oriented like game dev, having straight up honest conversations about where you want to go with your career and your motivations, is always going to be preferable to creating a confrontational situation.

Like I said...you come to me with an offer from a competitor....myself and HR may decide it's worth a counter-offer to keep you on board for now, but you're going straight to the back of the queue for further advancement.

I also have a successful career and manage people I'm not as petty as you if someone wants to discuss an offer they've had with me and I'd only keep them if I thought they still had a strong place in the company. Keeping them just to avoid finding a replacement and then dead ending their career is quite a dick move.

I've been in situations where your suggestion is feasible and situations where it isn't. I've gained most of my promotions through being straight up, but I've also accepted counter offer that has worked out fine long term (several promotions subsequently) and it wasn't a confrontational situation at all. HR process was just getting in the way and needed to be cut through - in this example, I'd gained enough experience in a role to justify a 50% increase, but in many companies that is a pretty tough conversation with HR. A straight up conversation was only getting me to around 15% increase.

The point is that your experience doesn't translate to every industry and company. There are valid reasons for counter offers and in some industries/companies it's just the way things have to be done for significant increases. It's all about reading the situation and making the best strategic play based on your observations.

 

[mid_gen]

I also have a successful career and manage people I'm not as petty as you if someone wants to discuss an offer they've had with me and I'd only keep them if I thought they still had a strong place in the company. Keeping them just to avoid finding a replacement and then dead ending their career is quite a dick move.

It's not petty. If someone is on my team and has demonstrated what is required for a promotion, they'll get it, without asking. If they've had to resort to pulling a counter-offer it means they don't deserve the promotion, but in the short term it may be easier to just keep them on board. I'm not dead-ending anyone's career, if they want to turn it around and demonstrate they have what it takes....they can take the opportunity to do so, or not.

I've been in situations where your suggestion is feasible and situations where it isn't. I've gained most of my promotions through being straight up, but I've also accepted counter offer that has worked out fine long term (several promotions subsequently) and it wasn't a confrontational situation at all. HR process was just getting in the way and needed to be cut through - in this example, I'd gained enough experience in a role to justify a 50% increase, but in many companies that is a pretty tough conversation with HR. A straight up conversation was only getting me to around 15% increase.

I don't put up with HR processes getting in the way. Never have, never will. They'll always come back with "oh no we can't do that, we always do things like this" yada yada. Even in gigantic multinationals these aren't hard rules at all, just jobsworths and people too busy to deal with anything outside their usual work. You'd be surprised how easily insurmountable process obstacles cease to matter if you dig a little bit.

The point is that your experience doesn't translate to every industry and company. There are valid reasons for counter offers and in some industries/companies it's just the way things have to be done for significant increases. It's all about reading the situation and making the best strategic play based on your observations.

I don't disagree, for me there is a clear hierarchy of means to secure promotions. Starting with the most effective for your career, and least risky, extending to last resort, that may burn your bridges.

1. Demonstrate you are the best person for the role that you want. Don't even ask for it, just be the first person on the list when a vacancy comes up.
2. * Make sure you aren't irreplaceable in the role you will be vacating (this can be tricky, admittedly)
3. Every year with your performance review, make your career goals and timeline clear, get it written down on your file, what position you aiming for, and when. Have concrete, measurable goals to satisfy to earn the promotion.
4. Obvious, but get as good a review as you can. Don't be afraid to push back to get higher scores on file, it will pay off down the line.
5. If none of this works, then you start to put your foot down and directly ask for the promotion, you have your good reviews and demonstrated goals delivered. HR are backed in a corner at this point, as you made sure you got all this stuff on file.
6. If this fails, then there's a failure in your company. Now is when you start the process of looking elsewhere. At this point though, personally, I'd be looking elsewhere in order to actually move elsewhere, to get away from a dysfunctional organisation.

This is my view on pursuing promotions. As OP says he loves his job and his boss has asked him to be honest and open with him.....then I don't know why it is even a question. Be open and honest with him, explain that you feel with your experience and demonstrated competencies, you should really be in X role. This is a much more positive and productive context to have the discussion in, than one where you have been actively focusing on a job search elsewhere, and are giving them an ultimatum. IF that fails, then consider looking elsewhere.

 

[Scam]

@mid_gen I appreciate your input but your experience is just that; only your experience. It seems to have served you well and if you've been lucky enough to be at companies where working hard (etc.) is all you need to do to get a promotion without asking, well I can tell you for a fact that's just not the way it works everywhere else. There's politics, lazy management, HR processes... there's a million things in a work environment that can get in the way. Life is not fair, we all know that.

If they've had to resort to pulling a counter-offer it means they don't deserve the promotion

Why so? If another company has head-hunted and deems them fit for a more senior role elsewhere, yet you're blind to it... who's fault is that? Or even head-hunted for the same role elsewhere on a lot more money, then they would realise they were under-valued at your company. Again, you're being overly simplistic.

It's not petty. If someone is on my team and has demonstrated what is required for a promotion, they'll get it, without asking

Again, you're being overly simplistic. It's entirely possible there's people in your team that think they have demonstrated what's required for a promotion yet they're not getting it. What else do they have to do? It sounds very much like it's your way or the highway..

than one where you have been actively focusing on a job search elsewhere, and are giving them an ultimatum

Well, let's bring it back to my situation. Firstly, I'm not actively job searching. I keep an eye on roles as my industry is expanding massively locally (as all good employees should). Instead a recruiter reached out to me regarding the role. So that attitude of "job hunting" isn't there and lands a much softer blow if that's what I tell my boss.

Secondly, I'm not going to get the role so there's no ultimatum. I want to demonstrate to my boss that I'm employable elsewhere (something a lot of bosses forget), and that I would consider looking if my career doesn't progress the way I want in my current workplace.