HDTV Overscan/Underscan discussion

Overscan on my Samsung LE26R41 was quite bad for me. I had my HTPC connected into the HDMI port. A custom res of 1190x692 would fill the TV. The text and image quality were significantly degraded.
1:1 on the VGA connection at 1366x768 looks much better.

The annoying part is that it should be user controllable. I have designed ASICs for HDTVs and can see no reason why this should not be done.
 
Mr Latte said:
HDCP
This is fully adaptable, say a company launches a macrovision style bug blaster for HDCP. You may think you have the protection beat, but all they do is then program the digital keys that this device uses and the list of disallowed/illegal keys will be ever growing and they can be pumped down through your internet or put on each individual disc. It will then cut the digital handshake between your display as it detects the illegal keys for the now rouge device.
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I was thinking about this the other day, as I understand it the same was possible on DVD, all DVDs included all 400 keys whether or not they had been licensed. When the first key was found (wasn't it Sonic or some other PC based DVD player that didn't protect their key) future DVDs could have been printed without that key on them anymore, but breaking the original product too.
They didn't do it then why would they do it now?

Also as regards breaking HDCP, from the guys who broke it in 2001:
"HDCP's linear key exchange is a fundamental weaknesses. We can:

* Eavesdrop on any data
* Clone any device with only their public key
* Avoid any blacklist on devices
* Create new device keyvectors.
* In aggregate, we can usurp the authority completely."
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If that really is true a PC really is going to be the best place to watch your media if you dont have HDCP compatible hardware.
 
DVDs havnt used anything like HDCP and thier protection is linear.

If you think protection systems cant be broken, then what about Sky Digital?

HDCP is fully adaptable and a lot has happened since 2001.
Have a google and see the Engadget report too, im not saying HD-DVD rips wont appear on the internet but this isnt the place to discuss it neither.

For average joe to buy his HD-DVDs or BLU-RAY and play them via PC he will need HDCP compatible display,graphics and probably Vista.

Dont think Vista has been fully confirmed yet as a requirement though.

Sony showed their latest HTPC running with Blu-Ray 200 disc changer and *special Nvidia graphics with HDMI output at LAS VEGAS CES
 
Mr Latte said:
DVDs havnt used anything like HDCP and thier protection is linear.
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I was referring to the fact that like DVDs the media protected by HDCP has to be distributed already knowing which keys are inuse and valid. Even though internet connections are almost a given in homes where this technology is likely to be used you definitely cannot assume that it will be available to devices.
As with DVDs where they could have distributed discs such that the originally discovered key was unusable, if they actually make use of deny lists with HDCP they run the very real risk of bad publicity and a huge cost an effort in potentially having to reprogram all a companies products, can you imagine if, for some reason, sony's keys got out?

Mr Latte said:
If you think protection systems cant be broken, then what about Sky Digital?
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Sky have a much tighter control on the hardware where their media is going to be available and the primary reason for breaking sky's protection is different to breaking HDCP.

Mr Latte said:
HDCP is fully adaptable and a lot has happened since 2001.
Have a google and see the Engadget report too, im not saying HD-DVD rips wont appear on the internet but this isnt the place to discuss it neither.
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I think I found the engadget article you were talking about re the DVIMAGIC device, but if you wouldn't mind posting the link to be sure we're on the same page.
Re HDCP, it's not actually that adaptable, I just read through the standard as it's openly puiblished, it is now at V1.1 but still has to maintain backward compatability, plus it will be a lot less open to further change once more adopted.

http://apache.dataloss.nl/~fred/www.nunce.org/hdcp/hdcp111901.htm
If you read that page and the two others linked at the top of it it explains why HDCP can be fairly easily cracked, and infact once cracked with actual keys allows anyone to generate a valid array of device private keys from any arbitrary KSV

Mr Latte said:
For average joe to buy his HD-DVDs or BLU-RAY and play them via PC he will need HDCP compatible display,graphics and probably Vista.
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The average joe in this country became very aware of the usefulness of having a multiregion dvd player, if enough people find HDCP to be an annoyance I can see the average person as readily looking for a solution.
Consider also the situation with HD early adoptors in America, there are many CRT HD sets out there that don't support HDCP, I can't see their owners being pleased about having to replace them.
 
Sorry but in a way Im all for HDCP being implemented. Discs like in the way Sony has tried with PSP will have any illegal keys added or security updates added with new movies all the time. Even if the keys are beaten you still may require a HDCP display and Graphics card. Its not a given thing this will be beaten and work consistantly for those looking a way around it.

The last thing the industry needs is easy access to exact pure digital copies killing the new HD Formats before they even get a chance.

I guess we wont know for sure about HDCP being as easily hacked as you mention. Do expect Vista to add to the problem though but we will see, thanks for conversing on the topic.

As for americans and HDTV CRTS, thats tough its like when Dolby Digital arrived on Laser Disc if you want the latest thing then sometimes you have to upgrade to get it.
 
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Mr Latte said:
The last thing the industry needs is easy access to exact pure digital copies killing the new HD Formats before they even get a chance.
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If the industry was interested in getting the new HD formats established, then would probably have benefitted from not going overboard with HDCP. I can't personally see myself acquiring any sort of HD playback device which isn't my computer for at least another 4 years or so, I just don't have the money to be spending on £800 TVs and £300 players, at the moment I only watch DVDs because it comes "free" with my laptop.
 
The overhead is there. Its adding 'features'. More features = more cost to consumers in the manufacturers eyes.
However minimal. Wether its half a pence or a few quid. Its still a cost.
 
Mr Latte said:
Sorry youll have to re-explain what you mean.
In your opnion whats so good with VGA,
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Sorry i missed this post.


One line is all thats needed. 48hz 2:2 pulldown on NTSC DVD's. 3:2 pulldown is horrible and thats why i will not use digital connections until they sort it.

RGBHV over BNC into plasma looks better than DVI anyway. Naughty boxes have long since sorted HDCP and many HDCP upscaling players have simple fimware hacks to output 720p/1080i over component.
 
Sounds like youve got the best solution for your display all sorted.


Good material from 1080i 720p looks grand on mine with HDMI
Done a bit of tweaking with Theatretek and some settings. Lost never looked so good.

Regards HDCP i think youll have to wait till the new players and discs get released to really know for sure its done/dusted. Upscaling is different from todays DVDs. Anyone saying otherwise is being a bit bullish but we will see.
 
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