Headphones vs Home surround

Soldato
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I'm really considering this!

My issue with the AKGs are a lot of people seem to think they're not very fun and maybe a bit bland in sound which has put me off them.
Also I've read the Dt's have a slightly better bass for explosions etc.
They also look nicer than the AKGs.

The only drawback is that cable is long AF so they wouldn't be a travel headphone... like ever.
DT990 is little bit more bassy than K712.
Like I said I have both.
And in long term replacing Beyer's earpads is lot cheaper than to AKGs.
Pair of pads for DT990 costs like 60% of pair of AKG's normal pads for K702 and K712's pads cost way over double of K702's pads.
And rarely for modern disposable culture Beyerdynamic sells about everything as spare parts if something wears.

Studio use aimed DT990 Pro has coiled cable, which would work better with portable sources and wouldn't try to fall to floor.
But of course it again limits your moving in desk use and wouldn't reach that well to behind PC.
Again with Sound BlasterX G6 (has Dolby Digital decoding for console compatibility) coiled cable should work well.
Other differences to standard DT990 are less decorated look and little more clamping force in head band.
But you could loosen it by bending cushioned part.
Unlike some plastics spring steel inside it doesn't break.

Though there's possible way to make part of cable coiled by yourself depending on if plastics alloy is able to "memorize" its shape when cooling:
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=82202.0;topicseen
 
Soldato
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DT990 is little bit more bassy than K712.
Like I said I have both.
And in long term replacing Beyer's earpads is lot cheaper than to AKGs.
Pair of pads for DT990 costs like 60% of pair of AKG's normal pads for K702 and K712's pads cost way over double of K702's pads.
And rarely for modern disposable culture Beyerdynamic sells about everything as spare parts if something wears.

Studio use aimed DT990 Pro has coiled cable, which would work better with portable sources and wouldn't try to fall to floor.
But of course it again limits your moving in desk use and wouldn't reach that well to behind PC.
Again with Sound BlasterX G6 (has Dolby Digital decoding for console compatibility) coiled cable should work well.
Other differences to standard DT990 are less decorated look and little more clamping force in head band.
But you could loosen it by bending cushioned part.
Unlike some plastics spring steel inside it doesn't break.

Though there's possible way to make part of cable coiled by yourself depending on if plastics alloy is able to "memorize" its shape when cooling:
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=82202.0;topicseen

Oh nice!! You have both!!

Which do you think is best for a casual listener for me who would like total immersion in their content? Likely more so for gaming and films portably.
 
Soldato
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Oh nice!! You have both!!

Which do you think is best for a casual listener for me who would like total immersion in their content? Likely more so for gaming and films portably.
While not up to top level in details for some competitive fps-gaming, DT990 certainly gives very balanced combination of bass and details for normal/fun gaming.
And it certainly would be still good for competitive gaming and player skills would make bigger difference compared to even absolute top level K702.
(+ bass can always be equalized down without any risk of signal clipping unlike in boosting weak bass)
Also movies certainly like good bass.

Comfort wise Beyer's manual head band adjustment of course fits better to different size heads.
And like CaptainRAVE said DT990's ear pads are extremely soft.
If they were bed/sofa, you would pretty much sink completely into it.
AKG's pads are notably stiffer.
 
Soldato
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While not up to top level in details for some competitive fps-gaming, DT990 certainly gives very balanced combination of bass and details for normal/fun gaming.
And it certainly would be still good for competitive gaming and player skills would make bigger difference compared to even absolute top level K702.
(+ bass can always be equalized down without any risk of signal clipping unlike in boosting weak bass)
Also movies certainly like good bass.

Comfort wise Beyer's manual head band adjustment of course fits better to different size heads.
And like CaptainRAVE said DT990's ear pads are extremely soft.
If they were bed/sofa, you would pretty much sink completely into it.
AKG's pads are notably stiffer.

Thanks. I am 100% not a competitve gamer. So would the beyers be better than the akgs?
 
Associate
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I have AKG K702s and recently had the DT990 250ohm Black Edition (now getting the DT880 instead). Use them all with a Creative G6 on PS4.

The Beyers are just so comfortable (especially with the grey/silver pads which seem softer than the black ones??). Sound wise, for music, I had to eq the treble down on the DT990 to make them comfortable for me. Now have Sennheiser HD58x for mucis duties.

For gaming the DT990 are great, but for me, the AKG K702 (with the bass port mod) are preferable. More spacious sounding, better sense of directionality and a bit less bass (while still sufficient). Its pretty much why I have gone for the DT880 now - to get a more neutral sound with the insane comfort the Beyer range has.
 
Soldato
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Hey guys, Still been keeping an eye on these headsets (open back) whilst I find a decent pair for the gym and casual use (I'm about to do a trial of the CH700s tonight).

I have realised my main source for music/films where I'll use headphones will be my ipad, iphone and rarely gaming rig (prefer the 5.1 surround with a subwoofer most of the time).

Given these duties, what amp/headphone combo would be easiest to use. for example, I commonly use my ipad or macbook in bed. so I'm guessing a portable amp or something would be great, or ideally a headphone which can give good results without one.
 
Associate
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"Quality" is of course subjective - Reasonable quality headphones generally have a better response than any speaker in an untreated room, however that's not the whole story.
Your ability to localise sound and get a sense of a space depends partly on the fact that when your head moves, what you hear changes. You're actually moving your head constantly and your brain uses this info. When wearing headphones, everything is static (unless you're in VR and have tracking information to utilise), so even binaural surround has a habit of collapsing in on itself. It's really easy to confuse front and back for instance, and height information is almost completely lost.
If you're not using binaural, things are even worse as panning laws are meant for speakers placed in certain positions and very few games try and do anything special for headphones.
On the other hand your brain is really good at learning this stuff, so spend enough time with headphones on and you'll adjust to a degree.
So it's a trade off. Which isn't a very helpful answer. Sorry.
 
Soldato
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https://www.head-fi.org/threads/mad...0-25-2018-creative-aurvana-trio-added.534479/

the above thread is gaming focused but also mainly competitive but you will find non competitive advice.

from my research though i would advice buying a Schiit stack from here

https://schiit.eu.com/

you will need a DAC - digital to analogue converter

and an amplifier these are sold seperately when buying schiit products rather than all in one.

https://schiit.eu.com/dacs/modi-3

that is the cheapest option for a DAC - this doesn't mean it's crap it's very good and from here on in upgrades are hard to find without at least tripling your budget.

for the amp i'd go for a little bit higher end as i like tube amps and get the Vali 2. I also personally own the Vali 1 so I can vouch for how good they are for the price.

https://schiit.eu.com/headphone-amps/vali-2

again you will need to spend a lot more to upgrade from this. at least doubling the budget.

as for specific headphone recommendations for single player it would be fidelio x2's or k712's whether you want more soundstage or bass. the x2's have more bass the k712's more soundstage. personally i'd go for the k712's their review is pasted below

Before I begin, I'd like to personally thank guide contributor and friend, @Evshrug for sending these out to me for review.

The K712 Pro, the latest and greatest AKG headphone to supersede the (in)famous 7xx line (K701, K702, Q701, K702 65th Anniversary Edition being the previous models) as AKG's best mid-fi headphone. I have been wondering just how different the K712 Pro is to my dearly departed K702 65th Anniversary. Turns out, not much (I wouldn't doubt that some people would find them near identical), but there are differences, however subtle they may be. Also need to mention that my K702 Anniversary was one of the earlier ones sold that had flatter/shorter pads, which may be the main difference between the Annie and K712's sonic differences. The K712 Pro had a lot to live up to, seeing as the Annie is more or less my favorite open dynamic headphone to date.

Build Quality:
Rating: Great

I'll basically paste what I've said about the K702 65th Anniversary, as the build is absolutely identical to the Annie. The only differences between the color differences (Annie is gunmetal with blue bars and accents, K712 Pro is black with orange bars and accents).

Made of a durable plastic, and well thought out design, I find the build quality to be great. I wouldn't toss them around haphazardly, but they'd definitely survive some abuse. The detachable cable is like the non-Anniversary models, which isn't the thickest I've seen, but certainly very malleable, flexible, and light. It certainly does it's job, though I would have expected a more rugged, or fancier cable for these higher priced variants.

Compared to the non-Anniversary models of the K701/K702/Q701, the headband is thinner in width when viewed from the top/bottom, with a widening of the area where the AKG branding is located. The biggest difference (and it's incredibly significant), is that the underside of the headband no longer has the notorious (7-8) bumps, and is instead completely smooth. This basically turns the K712 Pro from a torture device to a very comfortable headphone. There is no padding, but it is mostly unnecessary as the headband perfectly molds to your head, distributing pressure evenly across where it rests. The bumped headbands were notorious for digging into the scalp, especially on the center one or two bumps. Why it took AKG this long to rectify this issue the vast majority of people had is beyond me, but it's finally done.

The headband also has the added benefit of allowing bigger heads to fit due to less stiffness, and more space. Prior to the K712 Pro and K702 Anniversary, I basically needed the other models to be fully extended for them to fit my head. This caused a lot of tight, downwards pressure, which in addition to the hard bumps, didn't lead to the most comfortable headband design. It took me a few days to adjust to the older models, and I didn't find them as problematic as most people still do.

The pads are the second most significant change from the older models. They are made of memory foam inside velour. Very dense and molds to your head shape MUCH more than the older model pads. This causes a better seal, which is more than likely the main reason why the sound signature is warmer, and more bassy (from my experience with using a Q701 with the Annie pads, I found the Q701 to sound 99.9% the same as the Annie, with a slightly brighter tone which may have just been driver variation).

Accessories:
  • Velvet carrying pouch: One of the best carrying pouches I've seen bundled with headphones. It's thick and feels great, though it won't protect a headphone from much except dust and scuff/scratches.
  • Long coiled cable (black)
  • Straight cable (orange) w/6.3mm screw on adapter

Comfort:
Rating: Amazing

As previously mentioned, due to the new headband and new pads, the K712 Pro has made a noticeable boost in comfort over the older models. The headband change is significant for comfort. The removal of the dreaded bumps would basically satisfy ANYONE who had issues with them on the older models, and even those that don't have issues with the bumps.

The pads are arguable, as the standard 7xx pads, while more firm, breathed a little easier than the new memory foam velours. In either case, neither are sweat inducing or uncomfortable, personally. The new memory foam pads molds to the shape of one's head, leading to no uneven pressure. I find the older models to be not as uncomfortable as most people would lead to believe, but the K712 Pro would more than likely satisfy those who have problems with the older pads.

The K712 pro is easily one of the most comfortable full-sized headphones I've ever worn.

Design Issues:

There really isn't anything to complain about with the K712 Pro. If anything, some may not particularly like how big the cups are, but that's the nature of a full-sized over ear headphone. AKG has more or less perfected their 7xx design, fixing all of the previous issues people had with them (headband bumps being the main problem). The only thing I can see improving upon this design is to add some padding underneath the currently bare headband strap, which would further drive the comfort towards perfection.

Isolation/Leakage:
Rating: Poor

The K712 Pro is a fully open headphone, and as such, it is expected not to perform well for noise isolation/leakage. As I mention time and time again, reports of open headphone's leak tend to be severely exaggerated. Yes, you may bother someone in the same room, but never someone in another room, even with the door open. Unless you need absolute silence in the same room, open headphones don't leak so loud as to bother most people, possibly even if they were in the same room.

Sound:
Rating: Amazing

People will undoubtedly complain about the incremental improvements constantly being made to their 7xx drivers, but to those who haven't experienced every little upgrade (or even those who have) will find the K712 Pro to be the their strongest headphones yet based on their 7xx drivers. What you get in the K712 Pro is the most musical, and fleshed out variant, with a noticeable addition of bass, warmth, and pleasing tonality. AKG had previously made most of these improvements with the K702 65th Anniversary (aka Annie), but the Annie had some trade offs, particularly in the sense of spaciousness (not necessarily soundstage itself), and upper range clarity and detail (which were slightly lessened due to a smoother, less fatiguing upper range). The Annie was a slightly different flavor of the K712 Pro sound, with a thicker body of sound, more intimacy, and smoother, slightly more organic sound. I'm exaggerating the differences, as they are subtle, but a good ear can tell them apart.

The K712 is the perfect middle ground between the standard 7xx airy sound, and the Annie's warmer, more fluid presentation.

NOTE: I'm basing my assessment of the Annie with it's ORIGINAL memory foam pads, which AKG has since replaced with a taller memory foam. The new pads on the Annie may have closed the gap even more between the two headphones to the point where it may be harder to discern the differences in sound quality. I haven't heard the Annie with new pads, so I can't personally confirm. Just something to keep in mind, in case those with a newer Annie don't agree with what I say here.

Bass:
Rating: Excellent

The K712 pro's bass is quite well balanced and always present, favoring midbass over sub bass (which rolls off a little compared to the K612 Pro which maintains it's bass to very low levels, though isn't energetic and forward as the K712 Pro). The bass is full, fluid, and rich, creating some warmth and body to the meat of the K712's sound. Because the bass is very, very similar to the K702 Annie's bass, I will quote most of what I said about those, with a few edits:

Sound-wise, this is the most significant change coming off the older models. The K712 Pro presents bass quite well. You can consider it mildly above neutral. Natural if the source doesn't have a need for bass, and quite full and involving when the need for bass is there. Overall, the bass can be quite full, layered, textured, and infectious.

What it improves over the standard models is that the bass is no longer situational. It doesn't just hit with really bass heavy songs. It hits at all times, in a very natural way. Put on a bassy track, movie, game, etc, and the K712 Pro will impress. Make no mistake. I've always found the Q701, and particularly, the old K701 to be slightly below neutral. The bass would decay too quickly, and wouldn't hit with enough energy to give a sense of naturality. No longer an issue with the K712 Pro. Unless you're a basshead, I don't think there will be much to complain about here. If you like accurate, yet full bass, the K712 pro will impress.

Mids:
Rating: Great

The K712 Pro's mids sit between the 7xx's mids and the Annie's more upfront and intimate presentation. The K712's mids sound pushed back in comparison to the Annie, though not pushed back in the way of recession, but more because the soundstage is large and nothing is exactly upfront and in your face. The lower mids are aided by the lean towards bass that the K712 has, which results in a warm, and tonally realistic voicing compared to the standard 7xx and even the incredibly balanced K612 Pro, which comes of a little dry in direct comparison.

The one downside I see in the mids is that the patented AKG upper mids peak is still somewhat present, causing certain sounds to have an artificial etch to them, and seem out of place next to the K712 Pro's general warmth and smoothness. It isn't as pronounced as the standard 7xx models however, and the warm tonality and fleshed out signature of the K712 mitigate the fatigue a bit compared to the standard 7xx.

All in all, the K712's mids are more or less balanced with the rest of the sound, and are never lost or masked.

Treble:
Rating: Great

The K712's treble maintains a level of sparkle some found lacking on the Annie. The treble is generally smooth with some upper end peak as usual of the 7xx line, cutting off some extension as well as the fatigue that can be associated with too much treble in those ranges. The K712's treble adds some much beneficial air to the soundstage, as well as clarity and detail which isn't typical of warm/smooth headphones (which tend to roll off in the treble range).

I personally have to say that I really love the K712's treble as it isn't an everyday occurrence to find warm headphones that sparkle in the same way as the K712. I also love the original Annie's smoother, less fatiguing presentation, but it did come across more subdued. I'd say the K712's treble is generally more favorable, and more likely to please most people.

Soundstage:
Rating: Excellent

While the original Annie had a large soundstage, the thicker body of sound and smoother treble made the soundstage sound more restricted and congested compared to the standard 7xx and K712. The K712's soundstage is spacious, and excels particularly in width. The soundstage is dimensional, holographic, and layered. The K612 Pro didn't have the same dimensionality and layering in direct comparison, despite it's large size.

Positioning:
Rating: Excellent

A large soundstage, generally linear balance, and great detail is a recipe for success. The K712 excels in positional cues, much like the standard 7xx line, but with more body, and fullness. One can argue that it won't be as masterful for competitive gaming focus due to the standard 7xx model's tilt towards analyzing and detail-retrieval, but the K712 doesn't give up much in the way of those things, and adds in extra immersion.

Clarity:
Rating: Excellent

Objectively speaking, the standard 7xx models as well as the K612 Pro have a clearer tonality over the warmer, more musical K712 Pro. That being said, the refinement, musicality, and tonality of the K712 Pro is more natural sounding and realistic in comparison. The standard 7xx sounds artificially boosted for clarity, which may be good for raw detail, but bad for enjoyment. The K712 has excellent clarity, and I don't feel like I'm losing much of anything when choosing the K712 over the standard 7xx models.

Amping:
Necessary

The K712 Pro doesn't require much to sound fantastic, but as with all 7xx models, they scale up with better gear and amping. I would recommend a decent desktop amp for these. That being said, I enjoyed the K712 Pro with the Fiio E12, and didn't feel I needed much more. I can easily live quite happily with the K712 Pro and FiiO E12.

Personal Recommendation?
  • Movies, Music, In General? Yes
  • Gaming? Yes

The K712 Pro, is among my very favorite headphones I have ever heard, and currently my favorite open dynamic for all around use, even over the Philips Fidelio X1. If you're looking for the best all-rounder under $400, the K712 is one my absolute top recommendations. While I prefer the original Annie (flatter pads) for certain things (the mids and intimacy for music), the K712 has a better sound signature due to a clearer upper range and better sense of space which will benefit a larger amount of media, including gaming.

As a cheaper alternative, you can get a standard 7xx, and if you order some K712 pads for it, it essentially becomes a cheaper Annie/K712 Pro alternative for around $100 less than the Annie and K712 normally go for. It may not be completely identical, but it will be close. You also get the benefit of having both the standard pads as well as the K712 pads for easy swapping and tonality change. Your mileage may vary as driver variation needs to be taken into account. I recommend the K702 most for this, since it has a bumpless headband, while the K701 and Q701 still have the uncomfortable bumps, though will also benefit from this pad swap in the same exact way.

Final Impressions:

The K712 Pro has proven to be the best mid level AKG headphone in terms of musicality, refinement, and organic tonality. Yes, it doesn't stray far from that well known 7xx sound, but it eliminates most of what people disliked about them, while adding nearly all the things that were lacking (bass, warmth, organic sound). If you happen to like the standard 7xx and wished for more warmth, bass, and musicality, with less upper mid/lower treble fatigue, the K712 Pro demands your attention. I admit I was skeptical at first, seeing how much I love the original Annie and heard that the K712 reduced the intimacy. My fears were quelled, as the K712 gained it's own benefits over the smoother, original Annie, mainly in the addition of air/less congestion and upper range clarity.

I'm actually quite in love with the K712 Pro overall, and I find it to be a great endgame headphone for those without deep pockets. It's a safe bet to say that the K712 Pro is a headphone that I can recommend to practically anyone.

The most immersive AKG headphone I've heard to date. Excellent bass response, natural sound, and spacious soundstage makes for a very fun headphone.


While the standard 7xx models may be more detail oriented for easier soundwhoring, the K712 Pro is no slouch with great clarity without the expense of immersion and fun factor in general.


Sharing the same exact comfort I loved in the K702 65th Anniversary, the K712 Pro is among the most comfortable headphones I've ever worn. Auto adjusting headband, soft memory foam pads, and light frame. Not much more you can ask for.


The K712 Pro is amazing, plain and simple. If you want a great all rounder that does practically everything well, the K712 Pro is an incredibly easy recommendation.


Would the Schiit 2 uber magni/modi for £80 be a good deal to power the akg 712s?
 
Caporegime
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Would the Schiit 2 uber magni/modi for £80 be a good deal to power the akg 712s?

It would be yes schiit stuff is all very good. However I prefer the colour tubes can add they sound more alive to me and add something a digital amplifier cannot replicate.

It's all personal preference but once I heard tubes I couldn't go back to solid state. So I got a vali myself.

Sound is extremely subjective therefore it's literally impossible to recommend for anyone and anyone saying buy a specific product will never be right. You have to choose based on what sounds beat to you. Which is why audiophiles end up buying so much equipment and selling it on.
 
Soldato
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It would be yes schiit stuff is all very good. However I prefer the colour tubes can add they sound more alive to me and add something a digital amplifier cannot replicate.

It's all personal preference but once I heard tubes I couldn't go back to solid state. So I got a vali myself.

Sound is extremely subjective therefore it's literally impossible to recommend for anyone and anyone saying buy a specific product will never be right. You have to choose based on what sounds beat to you. Which is why audiophiles end up buying so much equipment and selling it on.


Thanks boss.

I was just not sure whether to get the JDS Atmos amp for 100 quid or the second hand schist uber combo for 80 quid.


My akg came today and it is indeed amazing compared to my old phones!
 
Soldato
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I think I'm going to calm down now and end my audio upgrade with:

AKG 712
Topping D30 DAC
JDS Atom

The DAC + AMP should come tommorow and then that will be that. I did try the D3x pro but it broke within 2 hours and tbh volume wasnt very impressive.

My next audio upgrades will be:
1. Dolby Atmos upfiring speakers
2. Fidelio X2s if i can find them for dirt cheap

Later on down the line, maybe a desktop set of speakers if I manage to actually build a second rig.
 
Soldato
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I think I'm going to calm down now and end my audio upgrade with:

AKG 712
Topping D30 DAC
JDS Atom

The DAC + AMP should come tommorow and then that will be that. I did try the D3x pro but it broke within 2 hours and tbh volume wasnt very impressive.

My next audio upgrades will be:
1. Dolby Atmos upfiring speakers
2. Fidelio X2s if i can find them for dirt cheap

Later on down the line, maybe a desktop set of speakers if I manage to actually build a second rig.

If you can return them, there's a Schiit Magni 3 and a modi 2 Uber for sale in the MM for £180. Great little setup.
 
Associate
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most DAC amps have an optical. Why not connect tv/av to that and use headphones. As for theatre sound its subjective. Decent pair of headphones and it won't matter if you can hear every little whoosh and ping behind or above you.
 
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Headphones compared to good surround system is not a comparison at all!!! Headphones cant do the job!!!

So what comparison did you do? I compared Z5500 from Logitech which everyone knows and Sennheiser HD595. The only thing headphones lack is they are 2 channel versus 5 or 7 channel. The clarity is superior on good headphones and the bass actually works i do not miss the subwoofer at all.


Now look at XLR Sennheiser HD660s or 800s and tell me if you still think the same. At night it makes watching movies possible and certain BDs like The Patriot have awesome lossless LPCM 2.0 tracks its superb with Asus Xonar STX and Powerdvd17.

I am pretty sure the above works the UB 9000 UHD player has a load of analogue inputs two are Neutrik XLR im pretty sure that can be used for headphones. It is something i plan to do a personal OLED home cinema with XLR 2.0 headphones over a very loud DTS X or Atmos setup. Its also half the price too.
 
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