Help - bought a bad car.

[Eddie]

Right, just a little update.

Yesterday we took the car back to Ford to ask them to reprint the inspection results to show the engine/gearbox mismatch. A different mechanic was there and asked if he could have a look at the car himself. When he lifted the bonnet he said that it's definitely a Ford 1.4tdci engine and he also said that it didn't look like this engine had ever been out of the car. He then went underneath the car to get the engine number and said that it wasn't there and that the location where it should be (on the block) was just smooth. We asked him if he was sure that the engine number would be in the place he was looking and he then proceeded to show us a couple of identical engines he had out from cars he was working on, pointing out the exact location where the engine number should be on each.

We asked him about the gearbox and the engine and he said that it was the gearbox that wasn't right for the engine. He said it can only be a Ford Fiesta or Focus gearbox or else it just wouldn't work. He said the reason why it's had the lug/dowel bit removed is that the gearbox is either an older or newer version but that it was definitely a Ford gearbox.

So basically, that's 3 different mechanics that have looked at the car offering three slightly differing opinions - no wonder we get confused and feel frustrated. The third mechanic looked the business I have to say, he was covered in oil and brake dust and had a big gash on his hand, which was still bleeding, covered over with a filthy rag. He seemed perfectly confident in everything he was saying and was not in any way hesitant.

We asked him why the engine number wouldn't be there and he didn't know, he said he doesn't understand it either - this was the only thing he was unsure about. We asked him specifically if the engine number had been removed and he said that it had and that he had to be very careful what he actually put on the results of the inspection, so as to make sure the garage wouldn't be in the firing line in any way - which was worrying as you can imagine.

He asked us how much we paid for the car and he said that the price was ok. He then looked through the results of the previous day and said that everything that's on there would probably cost the dealer about £300 to fix, excluding the buggered alloy wheels.

So, we took the car back to the dealers today, phoning them up first to make sure they were going to be there. When we pulled up the owner and two other staff were stood talking, leaning against one of their motors, and they took one look at us and dispersed (which reminded me of a load of vultures being chased away from a carcass by a hungry lion ). The owner walked past the car I was driving and I specifically looked at him to look in his eyes and he never looked at me once, even though he knew it was me.

So I guess we just have to wait to see what they say this time. I doubt it'll be today we hear from them, maybe late tomorrow or the next day but I'll be sure to update the thread. One thing the third mechanic said was that after they have fixed everything on the list we should ask them to extend the warranty by a month or two, which we think is a good idea, should everything prove ok with the car. We also asked him if the gearbox mismatch and lack of engine number would be a problem should the car need work doing to it in the future and he said that in his opinion it wouldn't be a problem, which is something.

I'd like it if you could give your opinions on the engine number issue as well as what we should do on the day we get the car back. We have decided ourselves to take it back to the Ford place and ask them if they can take a look to see exactly what the dealers have done, but I'd like to hear what you all would do if you were in the same boat as us. Obviously I'm concerned about the engine number not being present so I'll definitely ask about that when we go back, but what else should we be doing/asking?

Thanks a lot for this, we both really do appreciate it.

 

[rodenal]

I think you just have to wait and see what the place you purchased from say they are going to do - They are unlikely to have done this bodging though undoubtedly notice the alloys at least when you asked for them to be sorted.

Sheepish behaviour may well just not wanting to engage in a conversation before knowing more about the cars issues. Could also be completely at it but I guess you'll have to wait and see.

 

[Maccapacca]

Has it not got an engine number or has the engine number been removed, it may be feasible that Ford didn't print a number on it but if it's been removed it's very suspect.

Have you checked the VIN plate and the surrounding area, not scaremongering but you could change the VIN surround to a stolen car then grind off the engine number as people check VIN number but not engine number. Is it a VIN in the front window, do the rivets look OK?

 

[rodenal]

Check the boot for a vin plate too, it will probably also be on the B pillar / sill when you open the door. Make sure they all match

 

[MikeHiow]

This doesn't sound like the end of the world to me.

If the engine number had been removed, I'd perhaps worry a little bit about stolen parts etc. This would be bloody obvious though.

If it's just not there, then I doubt I'd care - it's probably just from a batch where it wasn't placed there, or maybe even where the stamp for that location was broken?

The gearbox looks to me like someone has gone to replace the gearbox with something they thought was identical and just found that dowel to be fouling it. If it was radically different, it wouldn't fit/work at all. If I'm honest, I probably would have done something similar if I came across it when changing the box in my 182. There's a small concern about ratios, but again, it's hardly the end of the world, and if you're happy with the way it drives, what is the problem?

As for those claiming the garage are clearly fobbing him off with the balancing/buckled rear wheel. If you thought the steering was shaking because of balancing, why on earth would you touch the rear wheels? They'd only re-balance the fronts. I had a similarly buckled wheel on the ST until the dealer replaced it with a brand new item, and it was undetectable on the rear.

I think all of this is made worse by scaremongering and "what ifs". Just relax and see what the supplying dealer comes up with.

 

[Eddie]

Has it not got an engine number or has the engine number been removed, it may be feasible that Ford didn't print a number on it but if it's been removed it's very suspect.

Have you checked the VIN plate and the surrounding area, not scaremongering but you could change the VIN surround to a stolen car then grind off the engine number as people check VIN number but not engine number. Is it a VIN in the front window, do the rivets look OK?

The opinion of the mechanic we saw yesterday was that the engine number has been removed. The VIN plate all look ok to me - numbers match up - and surrounding areas look ok to me too. I suspect the mechanic would maybe have pointed anything like that out but he never said anything. The thing that's confusing is that he said the engine looked like it had never been removed.

Check the boot for a vin plate too, it will probably also be on the B pillar / sill when you open the door. Make sure they all match

I didn't know there was a plate in the boot but I checked the plate inside the drivers door myself and it looks ok to me, again the numbers match. Nothing suspicious looking.

 

[Eddie]

This doesn't sound like the end of the world to me.

If the engine number had been removed, I'd perhaps worry a little bit about stolen parts etc. This would be bloody obvious though.

If it's just not there, then I doubt I'd care - it's probably just from a batch where it wasn't placed there, or maybe even where the stamp for that location was broken?

The gearbox looks to me like someone has gone to replace the gearbox with something they thought was identical and just found that dowel to be fouling it. If it was radically different, it wouldn't fit/work at all. If I'm honest, I probably would have done something similar if I came across it when changing the box in my 182. There's a small concern about ratios, but again, it's hardly the end of the world, and if you're happy with the way it drives, what is the problem?

As for those claiming the garage are clearly fobbing him off with the balancing/buckled rear wheel. If you thought the steering was shaking because of balancing, why on earth would you touch the rear wheels? They'd only re-balance the fronts. I had a similarly buckled wheel on the ST until the dealer replaced it with a brand new item, and it was undetectable on the rear.

I think all of this is made worse by scaremongering and "what ifs". Just relax and see what the supplying dealer comes up with.

Yes, probably sound advice, we are much more relaxed about it now ourselves.

Edit: Here's the updated text from Ford...

 

[red eye]

Right, just a little update.

Yesterday we took the car back to Ford to ask them to reprint the inspection results to show the engine/gearbox mismatch. A different mechanic was there and asked if he could have a look at the car himself. When he lifted the bonnet he said that it's definitely a Ford 1.4tdci engine and he also said that it didn't look like this engine had ever been out of the car. He then went underneath the car to get the engine number and said that it wasn't there and that the location where it should be (on the block) was just smooth. We asked him if he was sure that the engine number would be in the place he was looking and he then proceeded to show us a couple of identical engines he had out from cars he was working on, pointing out the exact location where the engine number should be on each.

We asked him about the gearbox and the engine and he said that it was the gearbox that wasn't right for the engine. He said it can only be a Ford Fiesta or Focus gearbox or else it just wouldn't work. He said the reason why it's had the lug/dowel bit removed is that the gearbox is either an older or newer version but that it was definitely a Ford gearbox.

So basically, that's 3 different mechanics that have looked at the car offering three slightly differing opinions - no wonder we get confused and feel frustrated. The third mechanic looked the business I have to say, he was covered in oil and brake dust and had a big gash on his hand, which was still bleeding, covered over with a filthy rag. He seemed perfectly confident in everything he was saying and was not in any way hesitant.

We asked him why the engine number wouldn't be there and he didn't know, he said he doesn't understand it either - this was the only thing he was unsure about. We asked him specifically if the engine number had been removed and he said that it had and that he had to be very careful what he actually put on the results of the inspection, so as to make sure the garage wouldn't be in the firing line in any way - which was worrying as you can imagine.

He asked us how much we paid for the car and he said that the price was ok. He then looked through the results of the previous day and said that everything that's on there would probably cost the dealer about £300 to fix, excluding the buggered alloy wheels.

So, we took the car back to the dealers today, phoning them up first to make sure they were going to be there. When we pulled up the owner and two other staff were stood talking, leaning against one of their motors, and they took one look at us and dispersed (which reminded me of a load of vultures being chased away from a carcass by a hungry lion ). The owner walked past the car I was driving and I specifically looked at him to look in his eyes and he never looked at me once, even though he knew it was me.

So I guess we just have to wait to see what they say this time. I doubt it'll be today we hear from them, maybe late tomorrow or the next day but I'll be sure to update the thread. One thing the third mechanic said was that after they have fixed everything on the list we should ask them to extend the warranty by a month or two, which we think is a good idea, should everything prove ok with the car. We also asked him if the gearbox mismatch and lack of engine number would be a problem should the car need work doing to it in the future and he said that in his opinion it wouldn't be a problem, which is something.

I'd like it if you could give your opinions on the engine number issue as well as what we should do on the day we get the car back. We have decided ourselves to take it back to the Ford place and ask them if they can take a look to see exactly what the dealers have done, but I'd like to hear what you all would do if you were in the same boat as us. Obviously I'm concerned about the engine number not being present so I'll definitely ask about that when we go back, but what else should we be doing/asking?

Thanks a lot for this, we both really do appreciate it.

if the numbers are missing or removed you want this on your printout if its been filled off this should be on the print out. as it could show tghat the engine is stolen. newer cars (can bus) are supposed to have ecus coded to the chassis and engine so will not work with bits from two cars this will give you the chassis number you should ask questions if the numbers dont match you could check with the police to see if stolen but that could mean you lose your money

 

[lemonade]

Maybe whoever did the botched gearbox installation decided to remove the engine number plate cos he thought someone might identify the botch or so no one can check the numbers to identify the parts correctly.

 

[Eddie]

if the numbers are missing or removed you want this on your printout if its been filled off this should be on the print out. as it could show tghat the engine is stolen. newer cars (can bus) are supposed to have ecus coded to the chassis and engine so will not work with bits from two cars this will give you the chassis number you should ask questions if the numbers dont match you could check with the police to see if stolen but that could mean you lose your money

I think this is what the mechanic yesterday was referring to when he said that he has to be very careful what he put on the results. But as far as we're concerned we just wanted it to clearly say that there was no engine number present and that the gearbox and engine were mismatched.

Maybe whoever did the botched gearbox installation decided to remove the engine number plate cos he thought someone might identify the botch or so no one can check the numbers to identify the parts correctly.

Yeah, I suppose that's possible too.

 

[Liampope]

Third mechanic sounds spot on (because he said pretty much what I thought regarding the engine/box ) - definately 'almost right', most likely just a mismatch of model year and some small revisions caused the minor incompatibility. The most likely future of the vehicle is years of fine motoring with, as the mechanic said, no issues when it comes to servicing and maintenance.

The engine number thing I'm more wary of, though. I can't agree with MikeHiow - engines dont leave the Ford factory with no numbers because they decided to put them somewhere else that week, or cos the stamp was having its lunch break. If it doesn't have a number it has been removed, as the mechanic said. I can think of mostly only dodgy reasons for removing engine numbers, but on the other hand I've heard and read of insurance companies removing them before vehicles are later broken up and sold as spares by breakers together with paperwork that, in your case, is obviously no longer present with the car. That's the most likely history of the engine, imho: stolen/recovered or write-off sold by a breaker to whomever fixed that car on the cheap and found it didn't fit the box so mashed it on. I know this sound mechanic said he didn't think it had been out of the car, but I really can't see how one can make that determination - after a few years of grime any engine will look like it's been in there since day one.

Whether the above can be any problem I'm not sure. Could well be totally legit, or could no engine number (and no supporting paperwork from a breaker for legit sale of said engine with no number) be one of those wriggle-out excuses for an insurance company in a serious incident resulting in an investigation? I'm not sure. As above - the most likely outcome when the wheels are replaced and other minor jobs done is years of happy motoring.

But I would say to myself in your position: There is hardly a shortage of 3k Fiestas with engines that have engine numbers matching the VIN and V5 with correctly fitted gearboxes, so why buy one that isn't just so if you can reject it? It all comes down to whether you're satisfied or not and how you balance that with the potential hassle involved. I dont know how easy the SOGA makes it to reject the car and recover your money - you'd need some advice on that from CAB or something. If it is easy then personally I'd reject the car. If it could be months of car-less hassle I'd probably just live with it as, as above, it will most probably be fine.

Next steps, imho:
1. See what garage intend to do about it
2. Research legality/possible implications of a car with no engine number with, eg, VOSA or local police.
3. If no. 2 rings alarm bells reject car.
4. If no. 2 suggests no probs and/or the garage fix things to your satidfaction, keep the car.

 

[Eddie]

Third mechanic sounds spot on (because he said pretty much what I thought regarding the engine/box ) - definately 'almost right', most likely just a mismatch of model year and some small revisions caused the minor incompatibility. The most likely future of the vehicle is years of fine motoring with, as the mechanic said, no issues when it comes to servicing and maintenance.

The engine number thing I'm more wary of, though. I can't agree with MikeHiow - engines dont leave the Ford factory with no numbers because they decided to put them somewhere else that week, or cos the stamp was having its lunch break. If it doesn't have a number it has been removed, as the mechanic said. I can think of mostly only dodgy reasons for removing engine numbers, but on the other hand I've heard and read of insurance companies removing them before vehicles are later broken up and sold as spares by breakers together with paperwork that, in your case, is obviously no longer present with the car. That's the most likely history of the engine, imho: stolen/recovered or write-off sold by a breaker to whomever fixed that car on the cheap and found it didn't fit the box so mashed it on. I know this sound mechanic said he didn't think it had been out of the car, but I really can't see how one can make that determination - after a few years of grime any engine will look like it's been in there since day one.

Whether the above can be any problem I'm not sure. Could well be totally legit, or could no engine number (and no supporting paperwork from a breaker for legit sale of said engine with no number) be one of those wriggle-out excuses for an insurance company in a serious incident resulting in an investigation? I'm not sure. As above - the most likely outcome when the wheels are replaced and other minor jobs done is years of happy motoring.

But I would say to myself in your position: There is hardly a shortage of 3k Fiestas with engines that have engine numbers matching the VIN and V5 with correctly fitted gearboxes, so why buy one that isn't just so if you can reject it? It all comes down to whether you're satisfied or not and how you balance that with the potential hassle involved. I dont know how easy the SOGA makes it to reject the car and recover your money - you'd need some advice on that from CAB or something. If it is easy then personally I'd reject the car. If it could be months of car-less hassle I'd probably just live with it as, as above, it will most probably be fine.

Next steps, imho:
1. See what garage intend to do about it
2. Research legality/possible implications of a car with no engine number with, eg, VOSA or local police.
3. If no. 2 rings alarm bells reject car.
4. If no. 2 suggests no probs and/or the garage fix things to your satidfaction, keep the car.

Thanks for posting that. The car we ideally wanted was a Fiesta 1.4 diesel and they are few and far between in this area, any that do come up usually go pretty quickly.

We checked the VIN and stuff with the V5 and everything seemed fine. At the time the car felt very nice to drive, the staff were friendly etc, everything looked legit, we had no reason to doubt anything. One thing I can't excuse though is that I never once looked under the car, if I had I'd have seen that there was a leakage I'm sure of that, but I'm not so sure about whether I'd have spotted the gear box issue. To be honest, I don't (or didn't) know what a gearbox looked like, I could have had a wild stab at pointing one out, but not with any great confidence.

We have considered the insurance issue - as I'm well aware that insurers look for any reason not to pay out - but we haven't looked into it yet, we will do though, depending on what the dealers actually do. It's easy for people to say to just reject the car, and I was under the impression it was easy too, but it's not as straight forward as it seems.

 

[Fuzz]

Have you done any history checks on this car yourself.
The most basic of which is free and available online with a document ref number from your V5 (it will be on the slip you've been given until the actual docs turn up) or by using the MOT station number (on your MOT certificate) and number plate.
This may give you a little more background to the vehicle.
http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/OwningAVehicle/Mot/DG_10020539

At least you now have got hold of a decent mechanic to go over it with you. He does indeed sound more reassuring than the previous muppets.
I think your main concerns now are getting rid of the vibration. Hopefully this will be simply the front wheels being buckled.

 

[Dogbreath]

The engine number thing I'm more wary of, though. I can't agree with MikeHiow - engines dont leave the Ford factory with no numbers because they decided to put them somewhere else that week, or cos the stamp was having its lunch break. If it doesn't have a number it has been removed, as the mechanic said.

There have been hundreds of brand new crated Ford Zetec E engines sold with no engine numbers on them, so it's quite possible. However, if there is evidence of the number actually having been filed/ground off then the origins of that engine are very suspicious.

 

[Eddie]

Have you done any history checks on this car yourself.
The most basic of which is free and available online with a document ref number from your V5 (it will be on the slip you've been given until the actual docs turn up) or by using the MOT station number (on your MOT certificate) and number plate.
This may give you a little more background to the vehicle.
http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/OwningAVehicle/Mot/DG_10020539

At least you now have got hold of a decent mechanic to go over it with you. He does indeed sound more reassuring than the previous muppets.
I think your main concerns now are getting rid of the vibration. Hopefully this will be simply the front wheels being buckled.

Thanks for posting that, much appreciated, I did not know you could find that info out online.

We have just done the MOT check, which was ok, and then did the MOT history check with the V5 slip document reference number, and well, the plot thickens!

Change of details
Type of fuel: Petrol recorded at time of test on ##/##/2009

Change of details
Type of fuel: Diesel recorded at time of test on ##/##/2011

So what does that mean? I know what I think it means but I want one of you to say it as I just can't bring myself to type the words

 

[JRS]

So what does that mean? I know what I think it means but I want one of you to say it as I just can't bring myself to type the words

As you say - if that note is accurate, then you know exactly what has happened! But before we go charging in assuming that a petrol Fiesta has had a diesel engine thrown in it between 2009 and 2011 - it could just have been a ****-up by whoever did the MOT.

 

[Maccapacca]

Too many coincidences

 

[Virdi]

What...??? From a petrol to a diesel..?? LoL. No way...!! That's probably a mistake..

 

[Eddie]

As you say - if that note is accurate, then you know exactly what has happened! But before we go charging in assuming that a petrol Fiesta has had a diesel engine thrown in it between 2009 and 2011 - it could just have been a ****-up by whoever did the MOT.

What...??? From a petrol to a diesel..?? LoL. No way...!! That's probably a mistake..

Just to clarify, if the results are accurate, the car started life as a diesel (in 2004), then petrol, then diesel again (makes me laugh just typing it).

Too many coincidences

I was actually going to call the thread Help - Bought a lemon!

The next time I go looking for a car I'm going fully armed with a laptop and internet access!

 

[Fuzz]

Oh dear, that history check really hasn't helped at all then.
I think I'd be wanting to just walk away from it all about now..

* Bangs head on desk