Help identifying engine!

[iaind]

Hi guys,

I recently bought a Saab 9-3 TTiD (twin turbo) from a dealer. One thing that has been niggling at me is the fact the engine cover and rear badge both say TiD.

The registration matches up to the VIN number and all the registration documents clearly come up as "Vector Sport TTiD 180", but the 8th digit of the VIN should be a "P" for the TTiD, mine is a "W" which corresponds to the 150 single turbo.

The obvious answer is look for the turbos, but I cant even find a single turbo!

Reassuringly, I have found other cars (http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classif.../1501/postcode/ex25ez/keywords/ttid?logcode=p) which are the same but it's a bit strange.

So, any ideas how I can get to the bottom of this? It certainly drives very well and has plenty punch throughout the rev range, but I havent driven the 150 so I cant compare!

It's fully HPI clear etc, so it's either a TTiD with the wrong badges or a TiD thats been incorrectly registered.....does that happen?

 

[iaind]

If the engine is installed the same way as in Vauxhalls the turbo will be at the front, I also thought the 180s had twin exhausts, one on each side ? If it is the 150 engine you would have significant lag under 1700 revs.

It/they seem to be, but behind a big headshield so I cant see for sure

The Aero TTiD had twin exhausts, mine has one concealed exhaust but its a Vector Sport not an aero

There's very little lag, it pulls quite hard from 1100~1200 rpm

 

[iaind]

Pics of engine bay (sans plastic covers) please. Preferably a photo of the exhaust manifold side.

well after doing a little research, from the looks of the advert images it seems it would be a single turbo the TTID looks a lot different with different plastic cover and the top of the upper turbo wastegate actuater peeking out at the front of the engine bay.
can you get some better photos looking down the front of the enginebay between the rad and engine please?

It does seem to. The thing is, that advert isnt my car! I've found a couple which are advertised/registered as TTiD 180 but look like that.

Pics here anyway

http://i.imgur.com/UZysr.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/MSj4W.jpg

The question is, if this is indeed a 150 TiD, how is it (and seemingly others) registered as something else? And what should I do if it is a 150? The dealer obviously bought it in good faith but if it is a 150 then it's worth less

I'm sure it must be an early version of the ttid or something else innocuous - the odds of it being some wierd **** up seem quite low, especially as there are others out there!

 

[iaind]

image of a Saab 9-3 1.9 TID VECTOR SPORT [150]

Saab 9-3 1.9 TTiD 180 Vector Sport

Yep I've seen those, which is what raised my concern

But there are others, such as the one I linked to which have the same engine/cover and layout but seem to be registered as TTiDs

It also seems the TTiD was revised at some point as the tax for cars after feb 09 is significantly less so there were obviously mechanical revisions

 

[iaind]

Don't suppose you can see any markings indicating an engine code?

Googling suggests a TTiD should be a Z19DTR, whereas a TiD 150 would be Z19DTH.

Couldnt see anything obvious, no

Physically, it looks identical to the 150 engine, the pictures of most 180s show a turbo actuator clearly at the top of the engine. So the badging and engine itself seems to suggest it's a 150.

However, it's recorded as a TTiD 180, the VIN on the registration matches that on the car and it drives like i'd expect a 180 to. It certainly has much better power delivery than other 4 pot diesels I've driven. The fact there are others out there in this situation seem to suggest it was just a mechanical/trim revision at some point. Another one here:

http://www.uksaabs.co.uk/UKS/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=90454

Registered as a TTiD, badged as a TiD and no boost guage (like mine)

 

[iaind]

pretty sure its a single turbo 150, the reason you cant see the turbo is its located under the heatshield at the front/centre of the engine.

Doesn't explain how is happened, or indeed how there are definitely others out there though

Planning to go down to Saab on Monday to see what they can tell me

 

[iaind]

Unfortunately that doesn't mean much. The DVLA are notorious for having the wrong information against the rego. It's more of a problem with imports, but it's only as accurate as whoever filled the paperwork in.

So if it does turn out to be a 150, what should I do? Only had it a week and purchased from a dealer. Keep it and live with it or try and get a refund?

 

[iaind]

I'm not yet convinced its definitely a 150, I either need Saab to confirm or be able to see the presence of only one turbo. It's still conceivable that it's a trim quirk with a mechanical revision. Given how well it drives, I'd be surprised if it was a 150.

If it does turn out to be a 150 I'd be conflicted, the condition is so good that I'd doubt I'd find another for the same money in reasonable time

 

[iaind]

Taking an alternative approach to this, I founda video on YouTube of acceleration in a ttid180 from 80kph in fifth, so thought I'd go and film mine and compare

Playing the 2 videos side by side, hitting play at the point both cars start accelerating. My speed warning is set at 90 and the guy in the video had his set to 150k (92). In the videos, my speed warning bonged a fraction of a second before his did.

Obviously it's not scientific, he could have been uphill or something but it expect a 150 to be noticeably slower

 

[iaind]

I have just watched that video and it doesn't look a great deal quicker than my wife's 150 CDTI Zafira as at 50mph the revs are around 1800 which is right where the turbo starts to produce full boost. You really need to try from 45-50 in 6th which would result in significant lag from the 150 engine, looking at other videos the 180ttid revs fairly freely to 5k this is not possible in the 150 the power starts to drop off rapidily at 4k and won't rev past 4.5k

I haven't tried revving it as far as it will go but it doesn't tail off at 4k, it feels much more petrol like and is still pulling strong at that point.

 

[iaind]

It does pull well to 4k but it drops off quickly shortly after. If you use 3rd gear with the 150cdti flat out the engine will not pull past 4.5k the 180ttid will rev to 5k going by the youtube videos.

Looking at your photos I can't see how it can be anything other than the 150 engine, the second turbo sits in the gap that is above the heatsheild in your photo.

I'll try third next time I'm out.

It's either an unusual clerical mess up that's happened on several cars which are for sale at the moment or a mechanical redesign and badging quirk.

The latter seems more likely to me but I'll need to find something definitive

 

[iaind]

Well, a few more nails in the coffin - notably the EGR valve being different and the lack of twin exhausts. Need to get down to Saab to clarify in the morning, but if we assume it is in fact a 150, I'm torn about what to do.

Obviously, I could keep it or push to return it. I like the car, I think its a great drive and its in extremely good condition. I think the power delivery is very good for a diesel and it does what I wanted it to do from a car. I could push the dealer for compensation for the difference in value (Circa ~700 according to Glasses)

Alternatively, if I like this I'm bound to like the TTiD even more, it was a TTiD I set out to find and is what I paid for. The TTiD is better on fuel and apparently more reliable. However, the dealer took a p/x so I'm not sure what they would/could offer - I'm guessing they'd offer another car from their forecourt of similar value.

If I do keep it, what should I then do about the details? I assume the right thing to do would be to notify the DVLA and my insurance company. Presumably I'd pay less for insurance although I think the tax would be slightly higher. Would this show up on an HPI check as a change of details? This would affect the resale too, so I could just "play dumb" but I'm not too keen on that.

So what would you do?

 

[iaind]

If its not the car that was advertised, I'd be giving it back, no question.

What are they required to do though, regards the trade in?

My invoice shows that I bought a "Saab 9-3 VECTOR SPORT TID 1.9" (The advert was definitely for a TTiD though) for £6000 less £3000 part exchange.

It is a dilemma - I'm starting my new job in a few days time so I need a car. I like this car and it was a great find in regards to condition etc. It's a fair price for a TiD and I'm more than happy with how it drives. So logically, I should just keep it and get on with my life. But there is a principal involved - I'm sure it was bought in good faith by the dealer - they have advertised exactly what the car is registered as, but the liability is still with them

 

[iaind]

If it says TiD on the back and on the engine itself then its TiD.

I am confused as to why you didn't raise this at the time, did you not give the car a look over before buying it?

Of course, I did notice it but I had already seen other cars on autotrader with the same badging. It just seemed that it was a badging quirk rather than anything untoward. There are Vector Sports with Aero badges out there. My dad's old Aero Turbo Edition had Vector door sills! Badging wasnt thier strong point, especially later in their life!

The car checks out as a TTiD everywhere, so it was a curiosity rather than any alarm bells

 

[iaind]

The advert is e&oe surely, it's the documentation and inspection you need to go by. If the advert's the only thing making you think you were buying a TTiD, then I'd say it's tough.

The advert, v5, HPI check etc all said TTiD.

The badge, as I mentioned, could well have been an oddity (especially as my research showed one or 2 others with that badge). It's perfectly plausible that early TTiDs were badged TiD - there's not exactly a wealth of information on the subject available!

The service book says "vector sport diesel"

The invoice, well, I missed it - I should have seen that and asked the question but I didn't. Not exactly the worst mistake of my life.

The only other clue is the co2 output is correct for the TiD, but again it's not really the sort of thing you check when buying a car.

I don't feel ripped off per-se, looking at values it does look like I've paid TiD price for the car and I am happy with what I've got for the money.

I think the dealer filled out their stock list based on what the car said in the back and didn't really notice that there was another T on the v5, it's not like it said it was a fiat punto.

I'll be calling them tomorrow to make them aware of it but im not expecting much, I'm not getting the impression they've done anything other than act in good faith.

 

[iaind]

Well I've got to the bottom of this. I spoke to Arval, the lease company who owned it before me. The HPI showed outstanding finance but the invoice from the dealer states that it is guaranteed clear and they will take liability if it isnt. They confirmed that there isnt any outstanding finance and that they did order a TiD 150. As the tax was correct, it was never noticed that the v5 was wrong.

So, a call to the dealer. They were under the impression that it was a TiD too due to the details that were given for the sale and just didnt notice the v5 and hence what had appeared on the advert. They were very apologetic but did point out that it was priced as a TiD (which, looking at values I dont dispute).

They did offer either £300 refund or installation of a Superchips Bluefin (178bhp) and a tank of fuel for my troubles.

So lesson learned, I shouldnt have assumed that the badges were a Saab oddity and taken the v5 as gospel. Never encountered an incorrect v5 before, but I've read something like 1 in 5!

Unsure whether to take the superchips or the cash now. It's going in to fix the sagging drivers seat bolster this morning (£80) and I'd like to fix the small crack on the rear bumper to make it perfect. It really doesnt need any more power for my purposes and I'd need to go back to wales for the chip/fuel so I'm inclined to take the cash offer.

 

[iaind]

full tank of fuel is £80 and a bluefin is a fair whack of money too, do what you need, do you need 28 extra bhp?

It is indeed, but it's also half a day of my time to get up there.

As I said, it doesnt really need it. I was going to have the few blemishes sorted anyway, it would be more useful to me to have those paid for tbh.

 

[iaind]

I'd take the cash, the remap will only potentially make it less reliable and costly in the long run, when you bought the car to save money in the first place.

My sentiments exactly. It really doesnt need it.... It has enough poke to convince me it was 180bhp so that says it all really.

I'd take the £300 and take it as a lesson learnt.

£300 is still what, 3-4 tanks of fuel?

Yeah thereabouts, or the 2 things I want to sort paid for.

I dont feel massively burned or disappointed in the whole thing but it's definitely a lesson in not making assumptions!

 

[iaind]

It was done at 60k and again when I bought it at 100 (part of the deal)

Also found through speaking to arval that it had a new clutch and flywheel at 90 and an EGR at 80

 

[iaind]

Yep