Help me settle a Michael Jackson debate with a friend

[ubersonic]

They are not new gold diggers

They are because they weren't gold digging previously, previously they were saying the opposite however now they know it's impossible for him to defend himself like he did against the previous false claims they're attempting to cash in, sad really, horrid people.

I'm 100% convinced.

In fairness, you were before you watched it, so it would be very odd if you weren't afterwards.

 

[Tek81]

I've just finished watching both parts of Leaving Neverland (proxy ftw). Although I like Jackson's music, I wouldn't call myself a fan. Nor would I call myself a detractor. Therefore I'm very much impartial when it comes to the allegations put forward.

Only two possibilities exist. Either Jackson was a master manipulator, who groomed children in order to satisfy his twisted sexual proclivities, whilst maintaining a "childlike" persona as a means to promote an image of purity and innocence, in order to divert criticism. Or, all those who have alleged sexual abuse, are lying in order to further an undisclosed (assumed monetary) agenda.

I personally slant in favour of the former. I do so because, having worked closely with victims of childhood sexual abuse, the grooming methods outlined by those in the documentary, fit very closely with those that I have encountered (trips to Neverland aside...). Although I wouldn't make the assertion that MJ is 100% guilty, I would still err on the side of caution. In my opinion, of course...

 

[aardvark]

They are because they weren't gold digging previously, previously they were saying the opposite however now they know it's impossible for him to defend himself like he did against the previous false claims they're attempting to cash in, sad really, horrid people.

would you say that against any victim of historical abuse? Someone who couldn't say the truth because they would be doubted and even attacked because they dared accuse a famous rich person protected by a large corporate machine with vested interests?
What if jimmy saville made great music?

 

[SexyGreyFox]

would you say that against any victim of historical abuse? Someone who couldn't say the truth because they would be doubted and even attacked because they dared accuse a famous rich person protected by a large corporate machine with vested interests?
What if jimmy saville made great music?

and of course forensic historical evidence which means when countless victims turn up telling the same story it becomes clear.
eg Savile used his left hand to do this, right hand to do that, always had a bar of chocolate, licked the cheek and so on (made that stuff up but you get the idea).
These two families in the Jackson documentary are telling the same story.

 

[Suicidal Ferret]

The jackson family are protecting their cash cow. His music is making more money than ever

 

[Merlin5]

On C4 tonight 9pm. The Michael Saville Jackson documentary.

 

[Tek81]

On C4 tonight 9pm. The Michael Saville Jackson documentary.

Forewarning, it's very graphic in detail. Some of the things mentioned made my skin crawl. True or not, it was disturbing.

 

[Merlin5]

Forewarning, it's very graphic in detail. Some of the things mentioned made my skin crawl. True or not, it was disturbing.

I read your analysis and since you've worked in that field I cannot ignore your conclusions. That said, there are a lot of folks in the world ready to turn their backs on friends and fleece anyone if the circumstances are right, so it wouldn't surprise me if it was for money. The ridiculously huge amount of dollars they could get from Jackson's estate cannot be underestimated.

 

[MookJong]

My take before hearing these new allegations was as follows:

Jackson was emotionally and developmentally stunted. He was basically a man child and perpetually craved the childhood he missed out on. In the same way you and your mates might have giggled over an adult mag or dirty video, when you were 11 he may well have exposed these kids to the kinds of things boys of that age share with each other. Now this is completely reprehensible behavior for a grown man but depending on how mentally ill he was you can imagine a situation where he just thought it was like a bit of fun.

One thing that strikes me is how normal his own children seem and that they had nothing but good things to say when he died.

But after these allegations I'm not sure it is that simple, I heard the documentary is very one sided and you basically have to take these two guys at face value but the level of detail and nuance seems convincing. I will certainly be watching it.

One thing I would add is that over the last few years celebrity oddballs have a terrible habit of actually turning out to be dangerously predatory.

 

[Tek81]

My take before hearing these new allegations was as follows:

Jackson was emotionally and developmentally stunted. He was basically a man child and perpetually craved the childhood he missed out on. In the same way you and your mates might have giggled over an adult mag or dirty video, when you were 11 he may well have exposed these kids to the kinds of things boys of that age share with each other. Now this is completely reprehensible behavior for a grown man but depending on how mentally ill he was you can imagine a situation where he just thought it was like a bit of fun.

One thing that strikes me is how normal his own children seem and that they had nothing but good things to say when he died.

But after these allegations I'm not sure it is that simple, I heard the documentary is very one sided and you basically have to take these two guys at face value but the level of detail and nuance seems convincing. I will certainly be watching it.

That's exactly what crossed my mind. I likened it to a "I'll show you mine if you show me yours" type situation, but coming from a developmentally stunted adult, if that makes sense.

 

[IvanDobskey]

I can't believe some people just refuse to see the truth with Michael Jackson.

I get that he was a talented guy and a lot of people loved his music, but come on, wake up and smell the coffee. The guy was a blatant paedophile.

These accusations have dogged him for years and for good reason. Every time someone threatened to spill the beans, he'd pay them off. You just don't do that if you're innocent.

 

[d_brennen]

These accusations have dogged him for years and for good reason. Every time someone threatened to spill the beans, he'd pay them off. You just don't do that if you're innocent.

It's often cheaper, guilty or not, especially in the US

 

[terley]

I've watched part 1

Right now I believe absolutely every word James Safechuck says, he seems like he has PTSD over the whole thing... Who buys a kid diamond rings worth thousands of dollars? If he needed the money surely he would have sold them by now.

Wade Robson, however, seems to be walking the line between lying and telling the truth, something about him doesn't seem genuine.

 

[IvanDobskey]

They have both convinced me so far.

Will watch part two soon.

 

[Tek81]

One thing I hadn't considered before - If this was all about trying to make money (as his supporters claim), Safechuck could have asked Jackson (who at the time was in dire need of assistance beyond the testimony of Macaulay Culkin) for money in exchange for being a character witness in the Arvizo case, back in 2004. He didn't.

 

[thedoc46]

i watched part of it, and saw enough to turn it off. At first i thought MJ was inappropriately cuddling up and perhaps the parents looking for a payout, but nope he went full on predatory sicko on young boys. Not sure i'll be able to ever listen to his music without throwing up a little in my mouth. Glad he's dead.

 

[jpaul]

the programme is very devicive and carefully choreographed, the memories they are supposedly recalling with all the details, or rather re-engineering/dramatising.
Their parents equally taken in/star-struck and indulging their, and their childrens fantasies ... they should be reproaching themselves too.

I hope HBO are donating revenue to an appropriate charity.
A regular documentary with an interviewer would have been more befitting for the serious subject matter ... this trivialises it .. but typical of usa productions.

.. now turned it off.

 

[Tek81]

the programme is very devicive and carefully choreographed, the memories they are supposedly recalling with all the details, or rather re-engineering/dramatising.
Their parents equally taken in/star-struck and indulging their, and their childrens fantasies ... they should be reproaching themselves too.

I hope HBO are donating revenue to an appropriate charity.
A regular documentary with an interviewer would have been more befitting for the serious subject matter ... this trivialises it .. but typical of usa productions.

.. now turned it off.

Out of curiosity, at what point in the documentary did you decide to turn it off?

 

[terley]

the programme is very devicive and carefully choreographed, the memories they are supposedly recalling with all the details, or rather re-engineering/dramatising.
Their parents equally taken in/star-struck and indulging their, and their childrens fantasies ... they should be reproaching themselves too.

I hope HBO are donating revenue to an appropriate charity.
A regular documentary with an interviewer would have been more befitting for the serious subject matter ... this trivialises it .. but typical of usa productions.

.. now turned it off.

I think completely differently, American documentaries often have OTT music, jump cuts, stupid filters and a huskily voiced narrator... this doc seems very well done, just two guys sat down telling their stories with the occasional input from family members.

 

[Panos]

What a load of crap. Innocence until proven guilty out of the window, against a dead man who cannot defend himself, without ANY proof than the word of two people who cannot stand in any court.

HBO made crap load of money selling this to every single channel buying the rights to broadcast it, because it is a money maker for everyone involved.

Soon a similar one for the King (Elvis), just to cash out in this toxic environment driven by left fascism.
Next one our great grandparents (and beyond), since we should be feeling ashamed of our existence, given the conditions of procreation back then.

Next step alongside music (already MJ is getting banned even on BBC, alongside many Christmas songs already), tearing down statues (Lee and others) and rewriting history, lets burn books including the Bible (not the children book the Anglican Church is using ofc) and everything that stands on the way of spreading the amoralism advocated these days.

And that's the result lacking of history knowledge by the masses, making the task of contemporary Wolfgang Herrmanns easy.