Help my son choose his college courses (IT related)

[iamtheoneneo]

This tutor is pulling a fast one. The 50% secure a uni sponsor is complete horse crock.
Your son is clear he wants to go to a Russell Group uni - He does A Levels. Theres no discussion really.
Diplomas etc maybe made out to be worth X amount of Alevels but at the end of the day top end unis are going to be really only concerned about A levels.

Manchester require A*A*A* with an A* in Mathematics, and minimum of one Science subject in the remaining A-Levels at A*. Thats his goal - no messing about with 'other qualifications'.

 

[Dragami]

Depends on the college & course I guess - my Foundation Degree in Software Engineering at college was extremely hands on.

Experience is arguably more important than qualifications to land that first job (or at least was the case when I was in that position - it does seem there are more opportunities for graduate positions these days), but lack of a degree can certainly result in hitting a "glass ceiling" as you progress in your career.

I would say that having several years of real-world work experience helped me no end when I went back to do the top up 3rd year of my degree afterwards.

I guess it depends really what he wants to do over the next few years.

If he's set on the traditional A Levels -> Uni path, then the best course to do is the one which gives him the best chance of getting into the uni he wants - whether that's the diploma or the A levels will require some enquiries with the uni in question.
If he's just interested in the best route into a developer job, then it's a bit more of a grey area, e.g. does the diploma include an industry placement which could result in a job afterwards?

Hi, £15's son here,

From the person who taught the programming diploma for over 10 years I've been told that 50% of the students who take the diploma get offered a degree apprenticeship, as in, the employer covers the university costs and guarantees a job at the end if all goes well. The other 50% I assume go the normal route of uni, or get a job outside of school.

He said that the diploma would offer more opportunities in programming specifically, but computer science offers broader opportunities, of course alongside the more traditional route of going to uni, getting degree etc.

From what others have said, it seems that universities do prefer the traditional 2 A-Levels as opposed to equivalent, but that wouldn't matter if I manage to get the apprenticeship, it just seems like a gamble at this point. Do I do the diploma in the hopes I get an apprenticeship, or do I take the traditional route of a CS A-level and go to uni, or try to find an apprenticeship outside of school.

Thanks for all the replies everyone, it means a lot.

 

[Rroff]

Depends on the college & course I guess - my Foundation Degree in Software Engineering at college was extremely hands on.

Experience is arguably more important than qualifications to land that first job (or at least was the case when I was in that position - it does seem there are more opportunities for graduate positions these days), but lack of a degree can certainly result in hitting a "glass ceiling" as you progress in your career.

I would say that having several years of real-world work experience helped me no end when I went back to do the top up 3rd year of my degree afterwards.

I guess it depends really what he wants to do over the next few years.

If he's set on the traditional A Levels -> Uni path, then the best course to do is the one which gives him the best chance of getting into the uni he wants - whether that's the diploma or the A levels will require some enquiries with the uni in question.
If he's just interested in the best route into a developer job, then it's a bit more of a grey area, e.g. does the diploma include an industry placement which could result in a job afterwards?

Was many years ago but was very hands on when I did it - one of the problems back then though was I knew more than my lecturers from just dabbling in my own time - to the point I was more than once asked to look at their notes beforehand where they weren't sure on certain points! - most of them had been kind of pushed into IT roles from science or maths and the good ones ended up getting poached by the likes of IBM anyhow.

There is no substitute in IT IMO for having your own interests and building up real experience alongside what you will be taught - I've worked with people who have done it as a career who know more about the theory, way more about the theory, than I do - but are completely lost when it comes to putting that into practise in a situation where they can't just repeat what they've learnt by rote, step by step.

 

[dowie]

From what others have said, it seems that universities do prefer the traditional 2 A-Levels as opposed to equivalent, but that wouldn't matter if I manage to get the apprenticeship, it just seems like a gamble at this point. Do I do the diploma in the hopes I get an apprenticeship, or do I take the traditional route or a CS A-level, and go to uni, or try to find an apprenticeship outside of school.

I wouldn't say that, aren't these degree apprenticeships for specific courses at particular universities?

For example:

Degree apprenticeships | Prospects.ac.uk

Get the lowdown on degree apprenticeships, including what subjects you can study, which employers offer them and how much you can earn.

www.prospects.ac.uk

On the plus side you graduate without any debt and having earned a salary for the previous 4 years + you walk into a graduate role paying say £35k a year but the courses seem to be more vocational and that isn't necessarily as valuable as having an academic one from a higher-ranked university. You'll have a better shot at some more lucrative roles with a better brand name university + with a more academic course you keep more options open to do a Masters degree etc.

Still not clear why this tutor is saying you'd need the diploma to pursue this option either, why can't you try for a degree apprenticeship with A-Levels?

It seems to me that you can apply for both - if anything applying for the degree apprenticeships seems like an extra roll of the dice as AFAIK the application is made to the employer so you could still submit a UCAS application for regular degree courses.

See here too:

How to decide whether to do apprenticeship or degree - The Student Room

www.thestudentroom.co.uk

If you’re considering an apprenticeship, apply before thinking about whether that or a degree is better for you. Theres no point comparing the two until you have offers for both as which is better for you completely depends on the offers. You always have time to accept an apprenticeship offer, and even after accepting, you can change your mind right up until you start (company might not like you, but its allowed).

Basically, I'm not sure you need to make your mind up now re: whether you go for a traditional degree or a degree apprenticeship and I'd query why you'd need the diploma rather than A-Levels to apply for a degree apprenticeship, I'd definitely check the application requirements etc... and/or ask around about this. (One thing you could do is simply be proactive and perhaps apply for a summer job or internship then you'll develop practical skills that would be attractive to a possible degree apprenticeship sponsor anyway - I bet just having a github with a few projects on it or something would probably put you ahead of a bunch of other A-Level applicants).

If I were you I'd do what the person in that forum post suggested and apply for both, see what offers you get then make your mind up. If you don't get into your desired unis like Manchester or similar then maybe the degree apprenticeship ends up being at a similar kind of university to one of the lower-ranked safety unis you listed on your UCAS application and the choice becomes easier.

 

[radderfire]

How much do you like maths? Do you really love maths? How good are you at maths?

Have you looked at whether you could get an apprenticeship by yourself, independent of the college, and still do all three A-levels?

It seems like a choice between going for academic excellence and top universities / programming jobs, which is fine if you really like maths, or perhaps doing a more work-related qualification with the possibility of more funding through university.

In general, if you are good at computer programming, it won't be a problem getting a job after Uni, they are desperate for programmers.

 

[Dragami]

How much do you like maths? Do you really love maths? How good are you at maths?

Have you looked at whether you could get an apprenticeship by yourself, independent of the college, and still do all three A-levels?

It seems like a choice between going for academic excellence and top universities / programming jobs, which is fine if you really like maths, or perhaps doing a more work-related qualification with the possibility of more funding through university.

In general, if you are good at computer programming, it won't be a problem getting a job after Uni, they are desperate for programmers.

I do really enjoy maths, I was 4 marks away from getting a 9 (A**) in my GCSE, in fact, I've applied for a remark in hopes they can find the marks.

The tutor really seemed to push the idea that if I wanted a job in programming, I'd need to do the diploma, as I'd get more opportunities in that specific field, compared to computer science. However the problem with that is, the diploma is vocational and likely the top universities would prefer to see the 3 A-levels. I've looked at Cambridge just to see what the requirements are, and they said they only need maths as a prerequisite, and no programming knowledge is required, but that they recommend further maths additionally as the extra maths knowledge can be extremely beneficial.

Do you think I'd be choosing between a more mid end job going the diploma, with the bonus of the funding, but with the caveat ot would likely be a more vocational course, and a higher end job by going through and doing a computer science degree?

So far I'm leaning towards doing the A Levels, but the words from the tutor about the diploma just being more specific to programming is still in the back of my mind.

I don't think I need to make a decision right away, as I've been told that people often change courses in the first few weeks anyway to find what suits them.

 

[peterwalkley]

The tutor really seemed to push the idea that if I wanted a job in programming, I'd need to do the diploma, as I'd get more opportunities in that specific field, compared to computer science.

This part is utter bull crap ! A CS degree will open far more doors than a Diploma.

From the rest of what you posted, I think you should go the A level route. Maths is never going to harm your prospects and if you enjoy it, then definitely study it. The A level route is the more common, and as I posted earlier far more understood when you are looking for a job. It is also going to open university doors far more easily.

Learning to code can be done in other ways than the diploma. There's tons of free stuff out there and with a little use of discounts and special offers, even the paid stuff from places like udacity is cheap. There's other threads on these forums for that - look in the "html, graphics and programming" section. There's quite a few code monkeys here, we'll help you if you ask.

 

[radderfire]

I do really enjoy maths, I was 4 marks away from getting a 9 (A**) in my GCSE, in fact, I've applied for a remark in hopes they can find the marks.

The tutor really seemed to push the idea that if I wanted a job in programming, I'd need to do the diploma, as I'd get more opportunities in that specific field, compared to computer science. However the problem with that is, the diploma is vocational and likely the top universities would prefer to see the 3 A-levels. I've looked at Cambridge just to see what the requirements are, and they said they only need maths as a prerequisite, and no programming knowledge is required, but that they recommend further maths additionally as the extra maths knowledge can be extremely beneficial.

Do you think I'd be choosing between a more mid end job going the diploma, with the bonus of the funding, but with the caveat ot would likely be a more vocational course, and a higher end job by going through and doing a computer science degree?

So far I'm leaning towards doing the A Levels, but the words from the tutor about the diploma just being more specific to programming is still in the back of my mind.

So if you really enjoy maths and are really good at it, such that Further Maths will be enjoyable for you and not too much of a struggle, then this makes the decision easier, and it's to do the A-Levels. I did Maths A-Level (a long time ago!) and also studied a bit of Further Maths but did not take the exam (not good enough at maths!) I would say to study Further Maths, you definitely need a Maths brain and you need to be quite gifted mathematically, otherwise it's too much; it sounds like you've got that. Therefore, I would be going A-Levels, because this seems to be the requirement for the top programmers, although the logic of that is maybe questionable, but being really good at maths is a pre-requisite of being a top-tier programmer. I am not naturally gifted at maths but I can still do some programming, but this is relatively basic database stuff, whereas a top programmer could write an algorithm to efficiently encode video etc, you get the point, it's maths.

The other thing is that maths itself has a lot of in-demand career possibilities, maths graduates are in high demand as well, e.g. actuary, finance, engineering etc.

Programming is a skill that you can easily gain yourself from the internet, a skill that can be gained at any time in life. So, providing you will find the A-Levels within your capability and enjoyable, that sounds like the best route in my opinion. This gives you the best chance of a computer science degree at a top university and keeps your options open.

I hope that helps.

 

[dowie]

I've looked at Cambridge just to see what the requirements are, and they said they only need maths as a prerequisite, and no programming knowledge is required, but that they recommend further maths additionally as the extra maths knowledge can be extremely beneficial.

I mentioned in another post but might have been missed - I'd check with the universities re: whether they like to see further maths as one of your 3 A-Levels or whether they prefer it as an additional 4th A-Level. Back in the day the advice used to be that for good universities if you're taking Maths and Further Maths they'd like to see it alongside 2 other subjects, not just 1 other subject.

 

[Nemiyen]

I do really enjoy maths, I was 4 marks away from getting a 9 (A**) in my GCSE, in fact, I've applied for a remark in hopes they can find the marks.

The tutor really seemed to push the idea that if I wanted a job in programming, I'd need to do the diploma, as I'd get more opportunities in that specific field, compared to computer science. However the problem with that is, the diploma is vocational and likely the top universities would prefer to see the 3 A-levels. I've looked at Cambridge just to see what the requirements are, and they said they only need maths as a prerequisite, and no programming knowledge is required, but that they recommend further maths additionally as the extra maths knowledge can be extremely beneficial.

Do you think I'd be choosing between a more mid end job going the diploma, with the bonus of the funding, but with the caveat ot would likely be a more vocational course, and a higher end job by going through and doing a computer science degree?

So far I'm leaning towards doing the A Levels, but the words from the tutor about the diploma just being more specific to programming is still in the back of my mind.

I don't think I need to make a decision right away, as I've been told that people often change courses in the first few weeks anyway to find what suits them.

Good luck with the remark and hopefully they can find you the extra points!

I really can't see how maths or advanced maths helps with programming these days. Programming is like learning a language rather than using maths, but I'm not a proper programmer so don't take my opinion as worth very much!

My opinion here is go for the proper A levels and then your degree in the subject field will be much more beneficial than a BTEC in the subject field.

However, I can see where the tutor is coming from and a BTEC in an IT related field may be better to YOU for learning programming etc but it won't be better to the people looking to enrol you in the Uni course or put you on an apprenticeship. Nobody could advise you what they will be looking for that gives you an edge over other people, unfortunately.

A levels in the subjects you're looking at prove you're a brainy boffin (no offence and provided you pass!) so that should be better than a diploma that more people may sign up to as those A levels are harder!

Edit: Just to throw you a curve ball here and don't let this sway you in any way but some people in this world are assets. so if you're applying for jobs or apprentiships and you're way more qualified than your boss is then that can equally work against you! Why would someone hire a person that's likely to get the promotion that they're working towards getting themselves etc?

Nobody will ever admit this but I know for a fact it happens in businesses and I expect it would do for apprentiships as you'd get a job there afterwards.

Some people look for people to do the job they're hiring for and don't want "go getters" or "ladder climbers" etc as it makes their job harder or their own promotion less likely!

 

[Semple]

This part is utter bull crap ! A CS degree will open far more doors than a Diploma.

Not sure I'd agree there. We don't hire software developers just because they have a CS degree. Heck we recently recruited someone who's just completed their physics PHD.

A lot of the time the degree is just a tick box exercise (an expensive one if you ask me). Most of the interview/recruitment stages are around your knowledge and experience.

 

[chroniclard]

Once you are out of the junior phase a degree is somewhat of a minor requirement in a lot of developer roles.

 

[radderfire]

I really can't see how maths or advanced maths helps with programming these days. Programming is like learning a language rather than using maths, but I'm not a proper programmer so don't take my opinion as worth very much!

My view is the A-Level performance is a way of determining who has the capability for highly mathematical types of programming, e.g. writing the code to land a re-usable rocket. Programming is a very wide field and there are so many styles and applications. Just because you can program for one thing does not mean you could do another.

 

[Nemiyen]

My view is the A-Level performance is a way of determining who has the capability for highly mathematical types of programming, e.g. writing the code to land a re-usable rocket. Programming is a very wide field and there are so many styles and applications. Just because you can program for one thing does not mean you could do another.

That's true, maths might be required if you're doing programming at nuclear or cern level!

Landing a rocket I imagine is as simple as the landing pad gives a GPS coordinate and the rocket has a matching GPS. If it is off then pusle rocket left / right or up down etc.

That and some infra red signal detectors. If 4 of 6 signals OK then good to land, otherwise... Nope!

Edit: Plus some optical recognition. If there's a landing square on the platform then ensure so much of it is centred in the optical sensor, else fire rockets etc. Based on distance from platform, more or less pixels or density will be seen.

 

[dowie]

I really can't see how maths or advanced maths helps with programming these days. Programming is like learning a language rather than using maths, but I'm not a proper programmer so don't take my opinion as worth very much!

Learning some basic rules and syntax is the trivial part though, actually solving complicated problems is the harder part. There is plenty of need for programmers who understand some mathematics in roles working alongside data scientists, machine learning researchers/engineers and quants, those guys might write code but might not write production code and software engineers working alongside them will need to at least have some understanding of what the code is doing and be able to implement it in a production system.

Just in general, even if software engineers aren't working alongside some maths whiz types they'll still perhaps find it useful to be familiar with say combinatorics, graph theory, operational research etc. plenty of overlap between those mathematical fields and CS algorithms.

Sure there are no doubt programmers out there doing some basic grunt work too - implementing some user interfaces or making some basic updates to a simple database etc.. they can perhaps get away with knowing the basics and just googling/checking stack overflow when stuck.

 

[Nemiyen]

Learning some basic rules and syntax is the trivial part though, actually solving complicated problems is the harder part. There is plenty of need for programmers who understand some mathematics in roles working alongside data scientists, machine learning researchers/engineers and quants, those guys might write code but might not write production code and software engineers working alongside them will need to at least have some understanding of what the code is doing and be able to implement it in a production system.

Just in general, even if software engineers aren't working alongside some maths whiz types they'll still perhaps find it useful to be familiar with say combinatorics, graph theory, operational research etc. plenty of overlap between those mathematical fields and CS algorithms.

Sure there are no doubt programmers out there doing some basic grunt work too - implementing some user interfaces or making some basic updates to a simple database etc.. they can perhaps get away with knowing the basics and just googling/checking stack overflow when stuck.

That's true yeah I know what you mean. I work with PLC programmers and they're working with PID loops and some complex formula calculations to ensure reactions and products are manufactured correctly.

I'm not sure they need advanced maths or degree level maths but it will definitely help.

Most of the time they work work PhD level scientists who tell them what they expect to happen and the control guys convert it into PLC code.

You might get paid a crap ton more if you can do the maths, programming AND fully understand what you're doing at a science level but most of the time you'll work in a team and everyone has their own role to play.

Mine is to replace the mice and keyboards for the PhD people.

 

[a66as]

If he wants to go to university they will look for proper A levels (for the Russell group ones), therefore it will be better going with a proper computer science A level, maths and computer science would put him in good stead.

 

[Macky]

I mentioned in another post but might have been missed - I'd check with the universities re: whether they like to see further maths as one of your 3 A-Levels or whether they prefer it as an additional 4th A-Level. Back in the day the advice used to be that for good universities if you're taking Maths and Further Maths they'd like to see it alongside 2 other subjects, not just 1 other subject.

I studied Maths, Further Maths and Physics at A-Level in 2013. Further maths was certainly viewed as a "full' A-level when applying for Mechanical Engineering courses. Things may have changed since, though.

 

[Hodders]

Pick 3 university courses you'd like to do.

Phone the admissions department at each and tell them you *really* want to get accepted there in two years. Ask them what set of qualifications they would prefer.

I did exactly that 20 years ago and they were super helpful. Hopefully they still will be.

 

[dowie]

I studied Maths, Further Maths and Physics at A-Level in 2013. Further maths was certainly viewed as a "full' A-level when applying for Mechanical Engineering courses. Things may have changed since, though.

Ah I might be out of date, I was like a decade before you and we weren't even allowed to choose it as one of our 3, had to take it as a 4th.

Though searching around all I can see is that LSE economics explicitly states they don't want it as one of the three and some medical schools apparently aren't keen on it, conversely other places seem to be a bit vague and statements about strong candidates having it as a fourth but no explicit rule stating you can't.

I mean if you can count it as one of the three without penalty then that's great, makes things much easier as you can just focus your attention on those three A-levels and play to your strengths. I guess the only advantage then of doing 4 is that if you're really comfortable with maths to the point where doing 2 A-Levels in the subject is not going to detract from your other two subjects then you have a fallback/safety option in case you miss a grade in one subject... assuming your offer is based on 3 A levels regardless.

I'd have totally done just Maths, Further Maths and Physics if I'd been allowed to do it as a third, that (IMO) would be a perfect combo for maximising grades for someone good at maths. CS A-level isn't really necessary for a CS degree but maths is.