Hi-end processor recommendations

TomO

TomO

TomO

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I need a good AV processor which supports HDMI and the latest standards.

a lot of the hi-end gear doesnt seem to be as upto date as the mainstream stuff in this respect but i think that the processor is the weakest link with regards sound quality in my setup now and is next on the list to be replaced.

source - Pioneer DVD-989, PS3, xbox, wii, freeview. will be adding a decidcated cd player for stereo playback.

current receiver (acting just as processor) - Pioneer AVX-AX4Asi-s
power amp - NAD M25
speakers - Dali Helicon 400 x 4 and C200 centre, Velodyne HGS15x sub.

found a lexicon MC-12HD which covers all that i want but is a lot more than i was planning on spending. other suggestions please - preferably cheaper unless it can make tea as well!:)
 
Audiolab are working on the 8000AP, but it only supports LPCM over HDMI, so you need a player with build in decoders. Its not out yet as there have been delays getting its HDMI 1.3 certification.

Im sure other mid to high end units are in the works.
 
Think you raise an interesting observation. Could it be that the more afford equipment "needs" to boast the latest technology to attract buyers. When in fact, just having this or that new standard does SFA for the sound of the device. Give me old technology well implemented, than new poorly done so.

So what new technology do you "NEED" and how much do you want to spend....
You say you want hi end, to what gain are you hoping. Is it's for music performance ?

I mean once everything is connected up, does it matter what method was used ? You just switch it on and use it after that.

High end amp will want a high end player and speakers to match...it gets expensive :eek:

So if audio excellence is your goal, live with what ever connections it provides.... it will still be sounding better !!!

Says the guy who's DVD/Universal play doesn't have an HDMI, nor does the AV amp. All connected with Component, SPDIF or analogue..... Do I feel I'm loosing "quality" not in the slightest !........I guess it would counts as "hi-end" by many peoples cost assumptions.
 
not so bothered about the latest audio codecs etc. but must have 4+ HDMI sockets as i like the convenience/features of HDMI and almost all my sources are HDMI.

The pioneer has prett much all the features i need so the main goal will be to improve sonic performance, particularly on CD playing. i use the setup a lot for music as its in my lounge even though my other purely stereo setups are better sounding.

CD player will be connected via RCA's or digital coax depending on what combination i get and which sounds best.

was budgeting on around £2-4k but i realise that my requirements limit me in terms of what is available.

:)
 
It seems high-end av pre-amps with HDMI switching and upscaling don't yet exist (to my knowledge) you can buy a av amp but only use it for a av pre-amp, which is a shame as paying for amps and not using them. And it'll sound inferior to a av pre-amp.

I've got a Lexicon MC-1 and that'll do for a few more years. If I need more HDMI inputs I'll just add a HDMI switcher, Oppo have one for £100 which is IR controllable. Then if you can get HD players which'll output full bitrate DTS it'll still sound great.
 
HDMI socket is only convenient when you plug it in, so unless you plan on doing it regularly, that's a one off event !!!
What about the matching NAD electronics to the M25 ?.... and get a switch/scaling box for the video if you must have many HDMI sockets.

I do try and not "fanboy" my own preference to much, BUT if your are REALLY serious about music performance from multi channel equipment, then Linn has it sewn up !
Then we are talking "Hifi quality Sound" from AV boxes. As that's how they design there stuff more than any other brand I can think of. "AV equipment" is perhaps wrong. More "Multi channel Audio" equipment ;).

If you can get past the lack of HDMI, then look at the Kinos, which has Component, S-Vid and Composite switching. Or the Akurate Kontrol, with out video switching. The now superseded Exotik is similar, without video, but can have a DSP board fitted. This would be very good cost effective used purchase.
These are going to offer serious audio performance, and are not a comprise like most AV amps are.

As with any gear, go do the demo with an open mind. At the end of the day we all have our preference and priority, mind is music. I like to the ability to do films and multichannel, SACD. DVD-A etc.. And that is what I achieve. Though I'll never win a Pub or Forum debate on features and facilities..... but then know one has every asked me to turn down or off ;)
 
9>
FYI I should be getting my LK280 shortly for the rear speakers. Probably completely overkill for a pair of Kef 3001s (big eggs), but it really was dirt cheap.
 
Mr_Sukebe said:
9>
FYI I should be getting my LK280 shortly for the rear speakers. Probably completely overkill for a pair of Kef 3001s (big eggs), but it really was dirt cheap.
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How dirty was dirt cheap :).
You need Phono to XLR leads to connect it, but they are not balance, only uses one hot pin. The leads are handed left and right.
Think I still have a long way to go to convert you though ;)
 
Anyone who just likes movies occasionally, or isnt that bothered with quality of reproduction, a standard dvd is always going to suffice and therefore spdif audio is a perfect solution.

Those who really love movies however and have collections of discs of various formats is more than likely to go the HDMI route for the advanced codecs and clearer picture quality.

In my view, with a decently transferred film, you cant beat hidef sountracks (some films it doesnt make any difference, but others I am still blown away after personally sampling 110 hidef discs)

Each to their own, as long as you are really happy there is nothing much to say except.....ENJOY!!
 
FrankJH said:
Those who really love movies however and have collections of discs of various formats is more than likely to go the HDMI route for the advanced codecs and clearer picture quality.
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I think that what 9 is suggesting, is that there's presently two ways to deal with HD sound:
1. Buy a brand spanking new AV amp (e.g. the 875 shown on this forum), and get the full signal.
2. Use legacy SPDIF connection and have limited bandwidth. I believe that the signal transferred is a very high quality DTS, i.e. just 1.5 times compression.
Whilst that limits the actual signal, it does have a couple of benefits:
- You don't need the latest AV amp
- Instead of spending say £1k on an 875, you could buy a second hand set of kit. e.g. a Linn 5103 AV processor and seperate power amps (my LK280 will be costing me all of £130. I'm not sure about the original RRP, but I'm guessing it was around £1k).
So then what you're doing is comparing the ability of a mid-range piece of Japanese kit with a high quality signal, vs a high end piece of audio kit using a medium quality signal.

I have played with an 875 myself, and personally will be going down the older AV processor route. In addition I've run a comparison between my BD player decoding a full LPCM soundtrack vs it being done by an external DAC. It's a far from conclusive set of tests, but my vote goes with the older higher quality kit.
 
9designs2 said:
HDMI socket is only convenient when you plug it in, so unless you plan on doing it regularly, that's a one off event !!!
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Doesn't HDMI have the advantage of being purely digital so the sound/video doesn't have to go through an unecesary conversion into analogue and then from analogue back into digitial again like it does with component? Also with HDMI cable quality is less of an issue?
 
What I’m also suggesting is I don’t see HDMI as a guarantee of quality. It’s an interface, it still requires all the processing and electronics to be doing the right stuff to sound or look good.

As far as I concerned a well executed Component video picture is as good as a Digital HDMI. … It might not be as cheap to execute, but we are not talking cost here, when we are discussing “high end” and quality of engineering.

Ok, the new HD sound formats are only supported over HDMI and not SPDIF. So one possible loss. BUT if you have a high end player, surely it should have suitable on board decoding of all formats available and then you use the analogue outs. No reason for it to have inferior DAC to the AV amp….. Buy maybe these are not on the market yet ?
I would prefer this route myself… Prevents “upgrading” the AV amp every six month when they change the standards. …
Where as if the player can read it, you can hear it, by my route.

I too have discs that vary on SQ, but is it the format used or how good the studio did the transfer ?
Once SQ is very good on a movie, better goes unnoticed. Where as with music it just keeps getting better.
I mean it’s been shown on this very forum people can’t tell a compressed MP3 file from CD, so why on earth do we need uncompressed movie soundtracks ??? ………….. I’ll guess, the marketing departments need it.

For me it is a case of how well you execute the technology, not what technology you use.
Two many people on Forums etc are completely driven by comparing specs, and wanting all the latest stuff in a £99 piece of kit…. And believe it will sound better…… My old Linn amp on just DD would spank it !!!! I have Denon 2106 in the UK, ok not new or high end, but it’s not even close to an 8 year old 5103 even on movies !).

As ever an open mind and time spent listen and not being persuaded by the flavour of the month is the best route to take. There is some great kit about from yesteryear, and once it’s all plumbed in, do we really care what method or connections we used …. Hell we are still improving the sound of vinyl !! ;)
 
I agree totally with 9designs2, A DD soundtrack on a high end system is likely to sound considerably better than a TrueHD (be it dolby or dts) soundtrack on an average setup.

Anyway DVD doesnt even make full use of our existing DTS decoders. Most DVD's dont even offer DTS, and even then DVD's rarely use a full bitrate DTS soundtrack. Most DTS DVD's are 768kbps, but the DTS spec permits up to 1.5mbps bitrates.

HD-DVD and Blu-Ray players often support on the fly transcoding of TrueHD soundtracks into a 1.5mbps "Core DTS" soundtrack. (Not all players do this but quite a few do). This Core DTS soundtrack is supported by 100% of DTS decoders, so everyone who can replay DTS is a winner.

There is plenty of life left in DTS, and because of the huge installed base of DTS gear its not going anywhere. Playstation 3 transcodes HD codecs to DD+ at 640kbps bitrates, this can still sound very good, a worthwile improvement over dvd's standard 448kbps Dolby Digital... Infact it pretty much sounds as good as a DVD with 768kbps DTS.

Codecs are all well and good, but when you consider that you can spend thousands getting the most out of the current generation codecs, adding a new codec to a cheap AV processor isnt going to do much. You need the entire package, speakers, amps, processors the works. Im sure the high street shops will be telling me that my rather expensive TagMaclaren AV processor is obsolete and I should replace it with the latest £250 all in one package to make best use of HD-DVD/Blu Ray.. My answer will be to laugh in their faces :P
 
Sorry to disagree here but the vast majority of people that spend in the £700 AV amp price and have decent speakers and sub will hear a big improvement over a traditional dolby or dts soundtrack with the new lossless formats. You have to remember you high end guys are hobbyists or as such a niche market. To get involved in that means spending BIG money and then your systems only as good as the weakest link in the system. Furthermore you need to have the room and acoustics to get the most out of it, all this isnt for average joe.

Surely too though AV intergrated products have improved over the years and the performance gap between yesterdays high end processing dacs and amplification have been reduced. Id find it hard to believe that the amplification and decoding in the latest £1000 AV amp isnt a close match for some fancy branded 5 or 7 year old high end product of yesteryear. Yes to get such performance in intergrated AV you have to go the high end models. I certainly wouldnt turn my nose up at the latest Denon, Yamaha or Onkyo in that price bracket.

All this is similar to when DTS first arrived on laserdisc. I remember the first DTS decoder costing about £700 yet within 6 months i had a Yamaha DSP3090? which included a quality dts decoder. It was notably more dynamic, had greater bass and became the preferred audio carrier over dolby. PCM lossless in my experience is the same. So on my average system at the click of a button switching between traditional dolby or dts and PCM means im getting a serious noticable upgrade in sound quality which in hardware would cost me hundreds maybe thousands to gain the same benifits.

Having great chips means needing great cables, means needing great amplification, means needing great speakers, means needing great room acoustics means your going to need deep pockets and be quite fussy before you reach your level of satisfaction.


Go buy yourself a Yamaha Z11 beef it up with external amplification if you feel the need, plump in a 2nd subwoofer and get down to its amazing 11.2 channels of surround sound. You can keep your TAG & Lexicon designer audio, theirs a system id like to hear...
 
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Mr Latte said it a lot better than my attempt lol

HDMI is the way to go unless you have thousands of pounds to play with and can get a processor, loads of power amps and quality speakers to match.

If however you dont have that kind of cash, you can spend £1500 or so on a decent hdmi amp and all the speakers etc and get a huge performance boost (and to my mind even spending the same amount on a 2nd hand processor, and all the gubbins - without even the extra fiddle of setting up all the extra boxes and usability factor - it is still only arguable whether you would actually get significantly better sound)
 
I think it is a close call, my setup is Yammy 2700 into Quad 21l + rel sub - fed with PS3 and PCM sound. I would argue my friends Lexicon/Parasound setup does as good if not better than mine when his is DD/DTS. He is having a mod done to the Lexicon to allow analogue inputs from his Xe1 so a proper comparison can be had then.

I would say that the 2700 was much better with DTS/DD than a 605 in HD mode (both on 21L2 in the shop) There is a difference between PCM and DD and to a lesser extent DTS 1.5mb but i think a very good pre/power setup can easily hold its own and we are not talking large amounts for old processors + 5chan poweramps these days. I think 1500 spent on a pre/power 2nd hand would do a very close job to a 1500 AV amp with HD sound and the pre/power would be significantly better on DD/DTS + Music.

Looking forward to hearing the Xe1 on his modded lexi as i suspect it will be sublime !
 
(and to my mind even spending the same amount on a 2nd hand processor, and all the gubbins - without even the extra fiddle of setting up all the extra boxes and usability factor - it is still only arguable whether you would actually get significantly better sound)
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tbh I wouldn't spend £1500 on a av amp, it'll depreciate too much and it'll never be as good as a av pre-amp. A older higher end av pre-amp + poweramps will sound better than a newer, av amp.
 
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Mr Latte said:
You can keep your TAG & Lexicon designer audio, theirs a system id like to hear...
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Thanks, I will keep my Tag :P. Considering many "average joe's" claim they cant even tell the difference between a compressed MP3 file, and an uncompressed CD, then the difference between a high bitrate DTS soundtrack, and a modern AV codec is going to be inaudible to the majority of people with £1k-2k setups.

High end amps/preamps of the last 10 years are still up there with the best of the best. The technology of amps has changed very little. Sure you might get a 'different' sound, but who's to say different is better.

THX for example changes the source sound quite considerably. I dislike it and always leave the THX processing disabled as it kills the high frequency response with crude filters (Even THX Ultra 3!) By the time the THX filters have mushed up the source material the original codec is going to make even less of a difference.

High end power amps are still largely either Class A, AB or B, and most of them still have their roots firmly based in designed made 30-40 years ago.
 
Just to add to the above. Whilst I've not compared like with like, I wouldn't be surprised if an older high end processor/power amp combo running DTS can match a newer HDMI enabled AV amp running LPCM.
However, that ignores one rather large thought, i.e. that whilst some of us may have HD films, chances are that we have FAR more SD-DVDs. An older processor/power amp combo is likely to do a MUCH better job on those.
After all, do we have kit to only be good on a couple of dozen films, or on all 400+ disks that we have?
 
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