Hi-Fi Upgrade

alexthecheese

alexthecheese

alexthecheese

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10 Mar 2006
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Not particularly interested in getting a surround sound kit at the moment, but would really like to get a better stereo setup for my room. Currently I have a Sony 70wpc amp, a Philips CD player running a pair of Mission 701 bookshelf speakers. The speakers are about 100wpc so it's a fairly nice match with the amp that I've got.

Basically they're not really quite loud enough anymore, particularly when it comes to punchy bass - the woofers just arent big enough and there's only one of them in each speaker ;)

Im looking at getting some floorstanders and upping the wattage somewhat - 200+ if possible to get the bass that I'm looking for. I'll also need a suitable amp to get the job done, but it's been a while since I've looked into this sort of thing so havent really got any idea of what's out and what is available in that sort of power range. If anybody could recommend just a suitable amp/speaker combo that'd be great, the CD player I have at the moment is great and wont be upgrading that.

Cheers. :)
 
Budget?

Sensitivity (speakers) is far more important than power (amplifier). Speakers do not have a "power" as such because they are a passive system. They have a power handling rating, but this is almost entirely BS - I have seen B&W 602 S3s catch fire when running at just below their rated power for under half an hour. The amp wasnt anywhere near clipping either ;)

I assure you that 100w RMS into Mission 701s would result in them not working ever again. The tweeters in them arent actually much good at handling power and the crossovers barely cope with half that power. Not that you would ever have got a useable 50w from that Sony unit anyway ;)

So what you are really looking for is a pair of floorstanders that are sensitive and have good bass extension and a good transient response. Your budget will ultimately decide whether that is a brand new pair of PMC MB2 XBDs, Dynaudio Audience 82s or some lowly Acoustic Enery Evo 3s (three floorstanders that came to mind, you would need to research them further!)

Amplification and source also play a role - I wouldnt suggest going for a Rotel amp if you want a nice warm sound! Budget again decides what ballpark you should be looking in. For a decent 200w/side RMS amp you are looking at megabucks for something that isnt a digital chip or power at ludicrously high total harmonic distortion.

At moderate listening levels I use less than 4w. At "party" volumes I dont really tip over 40/50w. At the point where I cannot physically stand to turn it up any louder, I am probably pushing out 80w. If you actually sit down and work out how much power you really need rather than looking at midi system "hype power" you will see that actually, 15w is all you actually need until you want a party or are driving inefficient speakers!
 
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Unfortunately you appear to have been brainwashed by the mass media into believing that power/floorstanders and BIG BASS are all that's important in music.
Some of the best systems I've heard use very low powered SET valve amps married to simple two way speakers. Just don't get sucked in.

Can I suggest that you before we start talking about kit, that you find a decent local dealer selling some reasonably expensive kit, say £2k upwards. Take some CDs along and have a listen for a while to see what's possible. Chances are you'll find that there's actually more to great sounds that simply wooly uncontrolled bass.

Once you've got the media hype out of your system, come and ask again and we can try to push you in the right direction.
 
I dont think I've been brainwashed into thinking that I need massive amounts of bass just to make music sound good, it's just that when people come round and you turn the music up the bass gets lost in the size of the room that I live in. I'm not after ridiculous car sub-style bass, but something more than I'm getting at the moment. They are only bookshelf speakers, after all.

After reading up on it I must admit 200watts is a ridiculous amount and it'd be just a ridiculous purchase - I'd have to be looking at getting PA speakers! All I did was saw that my amp was 70 watts and my speakers 100watts so just doubled it, that's all. I know those systems you get from Argos with their 600watts of bass or whatever is rubbish - my mate bought a £500 technics P.O.S. and it sounds HORRIBLE. I'm not quite that stupid. ;)

So is there half decent floorstanders for a reasonable amount? I'm not looking silly amounts, say £250-300 for the speakers and a suitably matched stereo amp.
 
£300 new doesnt give you an amazing amount of choice im afraid. Second hand, you can start to find some *seriously* good speakers for this money although you will need to be prepared to wait, have a keen eye and know what you are about when it comes to spotting what is and is not acceptable damage.

New, you are looking at something like Mission M35is (good luck finding a pair, took me a while!), Tannoy Fusion 4s, Wharfedale Diamond 9.4s or AE Aegis Evo 3s.

For £300 on the bay, you can scrape good Kefs, Castles and maybe, just maybe some Dynaudios if they come up for a tad over your budget.

Other makes can be found for similar money but releasing £100 more into the budget would get you into the realms of some very, very nice kit indeed.

As for the amplification, I have my M35is paired with a Musical Fidelity A3CR preamp and a NAD C272 power amp. To buy new on the high street you would be looking at about £1500 for those two (when just released, the MF isnt made any more). Second hand, you can get that exact setup for £6-700ish.

As you can see from that, you need to be considering the second hand route and, IMO, spending at least the same on the amps as you did on the speakers, if not more - £300 on the s/h integrated amp market will throw up manufacturers like Arcam, Naim (just, maybe a tad more), Musical Fidelity (again, just maybe a bit more), Audiolab etc.

Doubling that to £600 throws open the doors to monoblocking, pre/power or just some serious high-level integrateds, all of which will match up well with / get the most from the "cheaper" speakers. You could divert money from this to the speakers though which might work better, it depends on the brands you prefer the sound of and how much system synergy you get with them as you mix and match.

Bear in mind that if you are spending all of this money on amps and speakers, you need to be spending roughly the same on a source! That may mean you need to adjust your budget calculations slightly!
 
Definitely look at second hand kit. For £350 you could be looking at something like a Cyrus 7 amp and you could probably get some mission 782/3 speakers for a similar price (My 783s were £430 new). Don't limit yourself to a particular brand (unless you've heard one you like). You're getting into some 5-8 year old former top end gear with that sort of cash which will give a great sound.
 
i dont have a bass or treble control on my amp , it plays the music the way it was recorded in a multi million pound recording studio so i get a soundstage effect in my room

dave
 
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dalex said:
i dont have a bass or treble control on my amp , it plays the music the way it was recorded in a multi million pound recording studio so i get a soundstage in my room

dave
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Thats all well and good that it doesnt have any tone control - mine doesnt either, but to say what you are hearing is exactly what the multi-million pound studio heard when mixing things is quite a fair distance from the mark im afraid.

Do you use the flattest speakers? Do you change your setup for every different studio? Abbey Road uses B&W 800 series / Nautilus speakers exclusively. Other studios use PMCs - your system couldnt possibly address the nuances both studios offer at the same time.

What about the unique acoustics of the Sony M1 studio in New York - are your acoustics identical to those? If they are, then you wont hear the subtle reverberation the engineers of Katie Melua's Piece By Piece heard when mixing those tracks in a totally different studio.

Or, you could look at it the other way - is your system so poor that you find the studio work on Radiohead's The Bends to be acceptable? How about Metallica's St Anger? Is that the sort of multi-million pound studio sound you have in your room?

I might have gone a little far, but lets be clear about this - trying to emulate a studio is foolhardy at best. Get a sound you like and go from there because making ludicrous claims as to the quality of your kit without even telling us what it is benefits neither yourself nor the OP of this thread who is after some constructive advice.
 
I hadn't noticed poor studio work on The Bends because it's such an awesome album. Live it is something else though, makes you think what it could have been like I suppose.
 
tom_nieto said:
I hadn't noticed poor studio work on The Bends because it's such an awesome album. Live it is something else though, makes you think what it could have been like I suppose.
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I am in two minds about it. The more I think about it, the more I think that it was in fact deliberately done badly as some sort of statement or something. The vocals on the opening track clip at the first hint of a peak, which would light up any decent desk like a christmas tree. So they either did it on a shoestring budget and had *nobody* at the desk while they were recording, having preset the levels or they were aiming to make it sound diabolical.

Same goes for St Anger - someone who can afford to keep a $1m a day tour on the road can afford someone that can both see and hear to do the production on the album OR they aimed to make it terrible.

In fact, substandard production is fast becoming the norm. Its a crying shame that crappy pop music is often by far the best produced music that hits the mass market. Jazz is the only genre that beats it title-for-title from what I have heard.

Anyway, this is all a bit irrelevant to this thread. If the discussion of matching systems to studio values continues, it really ought to be in another thread so that the poor chap that started this thread can get the advice he deserves :)
 
tom_nieto said:
I hadn't noticed poor studio work on The Bends because it's such an awesome album. Live it is something else though, makes you think what it could have been like I suppose.
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On planet telex, I think it sounds pretty cool with the clipping..

:o :cool:
 
Fatboy said:
http://www.overclockers.co.uk/acatalog/Hi_Fi_Speakers.html

The Acoustic Energy Aegis Evo 3 Speakers are really good for the money they have one several awards for being the best value for money speakers for below £1k. I am going to purchase a pair my self, I have a Linn Set up at the moment and have been looking for some new speakers for a while.
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At the risk of sounding... well, like me :p I would like to question this just a bit.

I have conducted extensive listening tests in the past with a view to buying my current system. I listened to speakers up to and including £1k speakers and in my opinion these didnt even come close to making a shortlist, despite their rather low pricetag. If you have a budget of £1000 and are upgrading from a Linn system (even something low end like the Toukan(sp?)) these are not the way to go.

They got praise from the magazines for a couple of reasons:

1. They are trying *really* hard to get market share now Mission have folded once again. This seemingly unlimited marketing budget magically results in speakers that (quite rightly, IMO) got panned in their previous incarnations all of a sudden are best buys and stuff. If you arent prepared to look at the raw numbers of what the speaker is capable of then you are left with subjective testing - only the listener as an individual can hold a valid opinion on them in that case which all serves to make magazine reviews rather redundant I'm afraid.

2. They are cheap. This ties in to #1. They are following Kef on their business model - if they undercut the other manufacturers on build cost yet keep the RRP the same, the retailer makes more profit even though the speakers are cheaper than the competition. This drives the shops to sell more and work hand-in-hand with the reviewers to make them lots of money. It is the exact opposite of what BOSE do but just as effective.

It is my firm opinion that it is just a bit silly to "upgrade" your Linn system to these. As much as I am not the biggest Linn fan in the world even their bottom end standmount speakers leave these for dead in every single way save for ultimate bass extension.

For under £1000 you could quite easily get yourself some Dynaudio Audience 82s - almost all of the Linn clarity with the bass extension and slam to go with it :)
 
Fatboy said:
http://www.overclockers.co.uk/acatalog/Hi_Fi_Speakers.html

The Acoustic Energy Aegis Evo 3 Speakers are really good for the money they have one several awards for being the best value for money speakers for below £1k. I am going to purchase a pair my self, I have a Linn Set up at the moment and have been looking for some new speakers for a while.
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Shame you will never hear what the Linn electronics can do then !!! :eek:

DRZ, TUKAN's are NOT low end, now replaced with Katan, circ £500 bookshelf design. They are excellent, and make them active and on the end of good Linn electronics will musically smoke must stuff ....
The latest KAN (mk5 I think) are the basic ones.

Would advise caution with Dynaudio, they don't scale downwards IMO, need very good front end, and excellent amps. Very front end first type speakers....the way it should be ;)

On the crap state of recorded music, I'm with you DRZ, as we have posted before... "music destroying" ................Heard some 1960's recordings on vinyl last night on very high end Linn system, if lost nothing to modern CD, and often was better...... where have we moved to in the last 40 years....BACKWARDS !!!!!

To the OP, speakers are near impossible to recommend, so personal, would be very careful with "cheap" floor standers, have a listen to some brands see what has the presentation you like.
 
9designs2 said:
DRZ, TUKAN's are NOT low end, now replaced with Katan, circ £500 bookshelf design. They are excellent, and make them active and on the end of good Linn electronics will musically smoke must stuff ....
The latest KAN (mk5 I think) are the basic ones.

Would advise caution with Dynaudio, they don't scale downwards IMO, need very good front end, and excellent amps. Very front end first type speakers....the way it should be ;)
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I couldnt be bothered to go look it up, but I knew there was a Kan in there somewhere - regardless, I was referring to the 'bottom end' ones anyway :)

Re Dynaudio - yes, they are rather demanding indeed but its oh so worth it (IMO) - I absolutely love them as a "house sound" and I will almost certainly get a pair when I am in a position to be able to do so!
 
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