High Court: Homeowners can use 'disproportionate force' against burglars

One thing I don't think has been mentioned in regards to say using a gun inside the house for protection.

If you miss there is a very good chance of hitting and hurting or killing someone else who is in the house legitimately, or in one of the neighbouring houses.

IIRC there have been multiple instances in the last few months where US police officers have taken shots at one person (or dog) and wounded or killed other people in the house because the round has gone through the internal walls.
The same thing happens with depressing regularity for residents who are firing at intruders inside the property, it doesn't occur to the shooter to think where the round is likely to go if it doesn't hit the intended target and results in them accidentally killing someone they love whilst trying to protect them from a relatively minor threat.

As someone who recently had an attempted break in whilst I was in the house (the idiot tried to get in through the window of the room I was in*), it scared the heck out of me (and I suspect the brain donor needed new trousers), but if it had been in another room I would have called the police and grabbed something from the tool box under my desk, then made a lot of noise whilst making sure I had a door between myself and them.

If someone is breaking in with an intent to use violence, they're always going to have the advantage over you, regardless of if you've got nothing to use to defend yourself or a pump action shotgun loaded by your bed.
They will get in and likely be attacking you before you've woken up fully and got your hand on your gun (and they're likely to think of the gun as a nice bonus).

On the other hand the far more common burgler simply wants stuff and to get out, without getting caught - the moment they use violence it goes from something relatively minor that the police don't necessarily have the resources to follow up fully, to something where the police are going to treat it as a high priority.
If they actually do serious harm, or kill someone it takes it to a whole new level where the police will throw practically everything that might be needed at it to ensure it's solved (it goes from maybe a handful of officers for a few hours and a SOCO to potentially dozens or hundreds of officers for a long time).



*I was sat in the dark watching a film with headphones on and the blinds closed.
 
We are talking about grossly disproportionate force to attack an intruder. You can paint it how you want but that doesn't mean using a gun to defend your family while their lives are being threatened, it means things like shooting a bloke dead on entering a window down the hall from you. In 'Murica it might not make sense because that guy likely is armed (funnily for his own protection, cos it works the other way round too :D) but here he is very unlikely to be armed and therefore the use of that force is not just excessive but not needed.

There was a case in the UK in which someone shot someone dead before that person entered - they were on the outside just about to break in and the person inside shot them through the window.

Unlike almost all cases of people using force in defence, that one went to court. The killer was acquitted on the grounds of reasonable force. Which it seemed to have been - he had extremely good reason to think that the person on the verge of breaking in was going to kill him and his partner and nothing short of incapacitating injury would stop that happening.
 
There was a case in the UK in which someone shot someone dead before that person entered - they were on the outside just about to break in and the person inside shot them through the window.

Unlike almost all cases of people using force in defence, that one went to court. The killer was acquitted on the grounds of reasonable force. Which it seemed to have been - he had extremely good reason to think that the person on the verge of breaking in was going to kill him and his partner and nothing short of incapacitating injury would stop that happening.

If he had reason to believe this then in that case it is reasonable and the ruling was fine, the fact he knew he was at significant risk makes the fact he has not entered moot. the point i was making clearly is about shooting people dead without more cause than them being on your property.

I am not against killing in self-defence but getting trigger happy when a guy breaks in to nick a tv is silly and dangerous for yourself as well and bragging about wanting to do it on a forum is juvenile
 
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Shame, you've just had your throat slit.

And your toddler will one day reach for it and shoot her brothers face off.

Which is a far higher chance statistically than someone coming in to your house to rape your family. Unless you are heavily involved in gangs and drugs perhaps?
 
If he had reason to believe this then in that case it is reasonable and the ruling was fine, the fact he knew he was at significant risk makes the fact he has not entered moot. the point i was making clearly is about shooting people dead without more cause than them being on your property.

I am not against killing in self-defence but getting trigger happy when a guy breaks in to nick a tv is silly and dangerous for yourself as well and bragging about wanting to do it on a forum is juvenile

So from what he just said, the guy hadn't even made his way into the house yet... the owner shot him, you think this is reasonable force, yet someone coming into my home and me shooting them is NOT reasonable?
 
And your toddler will one day reach for it and shoot her brothers face off.

Which is a far higher chance statistically than someone coming in to your house to rape your family. Unless you are heavily involved in gangs and drugs perhaps?

Which is why people go to jail for having a firearm within reach of a minor (under 18).
 
reality is you've got a lot of leeway to use plenty of force if someone tries to break into your house or is even acting like they might be... if you're really stupid and shoot someone in the back as they run away or it is obvious that you've tortured someone or continued hitting them after they're no threat then of course you're going to be in trouble, but generally the law gives you plenty of leeway

I linked to this on the trespass thread for example:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenneth_Noye#Brink.27s-MAT

this guy was under surveillance by the police - he stabbed to death an undercover detective he found in his garden... he got away with it because it wasn't obvious that the 'intruder' (from his perspective) was in fact a police officer and he perceived him to be a threat...
 
So from what he just said, the guy hadn't even made his way into the house yet... the owner shot him, you think this is reasonable force, yet someone coming into my home and me shooting them is NOT reasonable?
Different circhmstances.

Where an intruder, or someone about to intrude, is believed by the householder (for legitimate reasons) to be intending serious harm or death then the genuinely held belief as to the threat level may justify lethal force, even if they're outside.

Forget houses and intruders for a moment. The same general principle on self defence, using the old 'not disproportionate' limit, applies to all situations, where reasonable force in self-defence is a valid legal defence to situations otherwise resulting in charges/convictions from assault to murder. But you have to belief the threat of violence is real, and imminent.

If you do genuinely belief someone trying to break in intends serious harm, then it implies some previous knowledge of that individual, perhaps why they intend serious harm, and perhaps even sufficient knowledge of that person to know that their character is such that they really are a credible and serious threat.

In any event, the same criteria applies, and reasonable force is justifiable in self defence. Whether lethal force is reasonable depends, in every single case, on the circumstances of that case.
 
....

I am not against killing in self-defence but getting trigger happy when a guy breaks in to nick a tv is silly and dangerous for yourself as well and bragging about wanting to do it on a forum is juvenile
Ignoring whether someone is trigger happy or not, "reasonable force" is perfectly legal to defend your property, including your TV, though in the case of property, it must be reasonable and not disproportionate.

So, if you kill someone simply trying to nick your TV, in the absence of some extreme circumstances it may be hard to classify killing them as not disproportionate. But, for example, if you use much lesser force to prevent them stealing, and they respond by pulling a knife and charging at you .... all bets are off. Lethal force may well be proportionate.

Whether it's silly, dangerous or both, to physically try to prevent a burglar burgling, or a better bet is to barricade yourself in a safe place is a choice for the individual. But you aren't required to avoid confrontation, or to hide, or to retreat from confrontation, by the law. It might well be smart, but isn't a legal obligation.
 
Which is why people go to jail for having a firearm within reach of a minor (under 18).

Which is why it's nowhere near as relevant for home defence as it's claimed to be. A firearm that isn't within reach is useless. The only time a firearm is useful is if it's in your hand, loaded and ready to fire. If you're under attack, you're not going to have a chance to get the key, go to the room with the gun safe, open the safe, take out the gun, open the ammunition safe (they're stored seperately for safety, right?), load the gun, unlock the trigger lock and then shoot the attacker who has been waiting while you do all of that...except, of course, they won't be. They'll have stopped you long before you could do all that, probably using their own gun.
 
A ****-action shotgun :p


If you can't hit somone with 2 point blanks blasts from a shotgun as they come through a door having anything with more penetrating power makes you more of a danger to your neighbours than the burglar
 
There was a case in the UK in which someone shot someone dead before that person entered - they were on the outside just about to break in and the person inside shot them through the window.

Unlike almost all cases of people using force in defence, that one went to court. The killer was acquitted on the grounds of reasonable force. Which it seemed to have been - he had extremely good reason to think that the person on the verge of breaking in was going to kill him and his partner and nothing short of incapacitating injury would stop that happening.

Why did he have extremely good reason to belive that?

Did he know them/was he expecting something?
 
He didn't have to know the perpetrator or know his intentions. The law of self defence is such that you need to stand up in court and convince the jury that it was your honest belief that the person was a threat to your life/safety. You must then convince the jury that the actions you took to prevent harm from that person were of reasonable enough force.
 
He didn't have to know the perpetrator or know his intentions. The law of self defence is such that you need to stand up in court and convince the jury that it was your honest belief that the person was a threat to your life/safety. You must then convince the jury that the actions you took to prevent harm from that person were of reasonable enough force.

But angillion said he had extremely good reason to belive the bugler was going to kill him and his partner.

What was the extremely good reason? As that seems a very unuusal thing
 
Maybe he claimed the intruder was screaming words like "I'm going to kill you all?" and the court bought that? I dunno :p
 
Which is why people go to jail for having a firearm within reach of a minor (under 18).

Bed side table.


So I assume you're happy to go to jail then?

Which is why it's nowhere near as relevant for home defence as it's claimed to be. A firearm that isn't within reach is useless. The only time a firearm is useful is if it's in your hand, loaded and ready to fire. If you're under attack, you're not going to have a chance to get the key, go to the room with the gun safe, open the safe, take out the gun, open the ammunition safe (they're stored seperately for safety, right?), load the gun, unlock the trigger lock and then shoot the attacker who has been waiting while you do all of that...except, of course, they won't be. They'll have stopped you long before you could do all that, probably using their own gun.

Exactly, so either you take too long getting your weapon (we are still in the middle of the night family rape scenario here?) or you end up getting arrested for keeping your weapon on/in the bedside table/under your pillow within reach of a minor.
 
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