High MPG medium sized automatic car wanted

BigglesPiP · 7 Jan 2008 at 03:16

[TW]Fox;10830460 said:
VW seem to have given up a bit on build quality with this generation - neither Golf nor Passat are up to the standards they set with the previous models. What grated me most about the Passat was the expanse of really cheap scratchy feeling plastic around the interior.

No, actually, I lie. What grated me most about the Passat was the STUPID ******** ***& & & ** ** ** * * * electronic parking brake!!!

It's the Union's fault.

VW are in the odd situation where their equipment is not building the cars right, and people are having to rebuild half of them. It's great for creating jobs, but the cars suffer.

If I were to buy a VW today it would be the one built in Czechoslovakia.

Third Opinion · 7 Jan 2008 at 08:14

Morba said:
how old is it though? not sure at what point the newer box went into the mk3's, the mk2's were horrific.
ford do do good autos when its not the rubber band ones.
i have had 2 focus autos which have been perfect in regards to the gearboxes.

2003, It's a shed to be honest it has cost a small fortune in repairs to the injectors etc.

Mondeo's make good diesels on a budget but for 12k you could do so much better.

merlin · 7 Jan 2008 at 09:19

The Passat only has one thing going for it and that's it's residual value.

Avoid like the plague. Buy a Ford or a Honda.

MarkDavis · 7 Jan 2008 at 20:10

[TW]Fox;10829920 said:
Problem with the previous model C class though is that it was conceived, designed and built right in the middle of Mercs well publicised quality nightmare so it really isn't very well built.

There is a sticky on one of the MB forums about common rattles for the C class and their fixes. It's many pages long..

If you're talking about trim quality not being up to the 'hewn from granite' quality of the previous generation of MBs, then you're right - all due to MB's initiative at the time to save some Deutsche marks with the design of the C Class. But the only people you're hear complaining about it will be traditional MB buyers and the Audi brigade. Still better put together than a Mondeo and still lightyears ahead in terms of mechanical reliability.

BigglesPiP said:
Many manufacturers offer a manual gearbox controlled by a computer, a Robotised Gearbox.

I'd get a 1.9 Diesel from Alfa personally.

You've got be joking.

All the 'robotised' manuals - and there aren't that many of them - have absolutely terrible reviews. Citroen Sensodrive anyone? Dog slow too not only in the time it takes to effect a change but also the engines to which they're mated. Alfa Selespeed must be the most unreliable gearbox on the face of the planet. 90% of owners end up with the gearbox slipping in neutral of its own accord whilst pulling into a fast roundabout... Unless of course, you're referring SMG sequential boxes or Tiptronic type boxes which aren't technically robotised manuals.

1.9 Alfa Diesel doesn't come in automatic guise. Not that you'd ever want an autobox and an Alfa in the same sentence.

Third Opinion · 7 Jan 2008 at 20:23

MarkDavis said:
You've got be joking.

All the 'robotised' manuals - and there aren't that many of them - have absolutely terrible reviews. Citroen Sensodrive anyone? Dog slow too not only in the time it takes to effect a change but also the engines to which they're mated. Alfa Selespeed must be the most unreliable gearbox on the face of the planet. 90% of owners end up with the gearbox slipping in neutral of its own accord whilst pulling into a fast roundabout... Unless of course, you're referring SMG sequential boxes or Tiptronic type boxes which aren't technically robotised manuals.

1.9 Alfa Diesel doesn't come in automatic guise. Not that you'd ever want an autobox and an Alfa in the same sentence.

The Selespeed isn't really an autobox, it is a true semi auto with a proper clutch not torque convertor. The were dog awfully unreliable but most of the problems were sorted by 2001. The actuators used to fail which isn't a major deal. They did however need an expensive overhaul every 100k, but their again most manuals will need a clutch or two in that period.

As for automatics Alfa use the Q-system which is really rather good. Like most of your unfounded Alfa jests Q-system failures are practicularly unheard anymore than any other manufacturers autos.

Edit: The Alfa Romeo 159 is also available in 1.9JTD automatic but lets not let a little matter of accuracy come between your posts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfa_Romeo_159

MarkDavis · 7 Jan 2008 at 20:31

Third Opinion said:
The were dog awfully unreliable but most of the problems were sorted by 2001. The actuators used to fail which isn't a major deal.

Not really. There are loads of 03 and 04 cars which catastrophic gearbox failures at less than 60k. Even the Alfa nutters avoid them. Replacing the actuator is best part of £1,000 inc labour. Selespeed was so bad that Alfa completely abandoned the design and threw the engineering plans into a bottomless hole. The Q-System isn't a robotised manual - its an automatic.

Third Opinion · 7 Jan 2008 at 20:42

MarkDavis said:
Not really. There are loads of 03 and 04 cars which catastrophic gearbox failures at less than 60k. Replacing the actuator is best part of £1,000 inc labour. Selespeed was so bad that Alfa completely abandoned the design.

They have no more failures than any other automatic vehicles. It depends how they are driven and maintained. As usual you have come back with nothing to substantiate your claim other than your "word".

Everything single thread no matter what it's about you wade in with the Alfa are rubbish, Alfa are rubbish, My BMW suspension, My BMW gearbox, My BMW 323i engine. We were talking Alfa oil the other week and you came in knocking on about your suspension!

God your like a stuck record, you only need to read a little of your posting history to see you have a massive chip on your shoulder.

MarkDavis · 7 Jan 2008 at 20:56

Third Opinion said:
They have no more failures than any other automatic vehicles.

Err, yeah that's right, Alfa Selespeed Robot Q-Manual System or whatever you call it is right up there in terms of reliability with Mercedes Benz who have been designing - and more importantly, testing - autos since time began.

So I'm sorry for pointing out that Alfa Romeos are unreliable cars that don't last very long. And I'm even more sorry to burst the bubbles of all the Alfa Romeo owners out there, who don't realise that having their cars sold scrap at 60k because their R2D2 gearbox has failed, isn't normal.

Third Opinion · 7 Jan 2008 at 21:07

MarkDavis said:
Err, yeah that's right, Alfa Selespeed Robot Q-Manual System or whatever you call it is right up there in terms of reliability with Mercedes Benz who have been designing - and more importantly, testing - autos since time began.

So I'm sorry for pointing out that Alfa Romeos are unreliable cars that don't last very long. And I'm even more sorry to burst the bubbles of all the Alfa Romeo owners out there, who don't realise that having their cars sold scrap at 60k because their R2D2 gearbox has failed, isn't normal.

You cannot substantiate one of your claims so you return with your usual ranting.

You claim Q-system boxes fail, now you have returned banging on about Selespeeds, which are not really classed as automatics. In fact it was such a new concept that in Australia they required people to take an extra test to drive one.

You also claim that Alfa don't do automatic diesels, wrong again.

Why not return under your bridge for awhile?

MarkDavis · 7 Jan 2008 at 21:21

Third Opinion said:
In fact it was such a new concept that in Australia they required people to take an extra test to drive one.

Q1: You are driving your Alfa Romeo Selespeed Q Manual Automatic automobile. You approach a large roundabout, and stop at the 'give way' lines. Traffic is temporarily clear, so you decide to accelerate into the roundabout. Suddenly the gearbox of your Alfa Romeo Selespeed Q Manual Automatic automobile punts you into neutral. A truck is quickly approaching from the right and is heading straight towards you. What do you do?

A. Call the AA
B. Call a priest
C. "Arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrghh!!"
D. Wish you'd bought a BMW / Mercedes Benz / Japanese car / Robin Reliant / any other car.
E. Watch your entire life flash before you eyes, whilst reciting the mantra "Alfa Romeo are great at styling cars but hideous when it comes to engineering reliability."
F. Count the number of 150k+ BMW automatics being sold on Autotrader?
G. Count the number of 100k+ Alfa automatics / selespeeds being sold on Autotrader?
H. All of the above

Third Opinion · 7 Jan 2008 at 21:29

MarkDavis said:
Q1: You are driving your Alfa Romeo Selespeed Q Manual Automatic automobile. You approach a large roundabout, and stop at the 'give way' lines. Traffic is temporarily clear, so you decide to accelerate into the roundabout. Suddenly the gearbox of your Alfa Romeo Selespeed Q Manual Automatic automobile punts you into neutral. A truck is quickly approaching from the right and is heading straight towards you. What do you do?

A. Call the AA
B. Call a priest
C. "Arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrghh!!"
D. Wish you'd bought a BMW / Mercedes Benz / Japanese car / Robin Reliant / any other car.
E. Watch your entire life flash before you eyes, whilst reciting the mantra "Alfa Romeo are great at styling cars but hideous when it comes to engineering reliability."
F. Count the number of 150k+ BMW automatics being sold on Autotrader?
G. Count the number of 100k+ Alfa automatics / selespeeds being sold on Autotrader?
H. All of the above

Do not feed the trolls

An Internet troll, or simply troll in Internet slang, is someone who posts controversial messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, with the intention of baiting other users into an emotional response.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll

MarkDavis · 7 Jan 2008 at 21:36

For the third year running, Alfa Romeo has one of the lowest average mileages and some of the youngest cars in this survey, yet it continues to sit near the bottom of the reliability table.

There is little improvement on its showing in last year’s survey, with just 0.1% fewer claims per 100 cars. What’s more, Alfas are among the most expensive and time-consuming cars to fix when things do go wrong, with an average repair cost of £423 and an average repair time of nearly four hours.

http://www.whatcar.co.uk/news-special-report.aspx?NA=217350&EL=3142807

Used Alfas cost more to repair than any other make, according to Warranty Direct. Alfas came joint worst for breakdowns in the German ADAC survey in 2001. Alfa was fourth-worst manufacturer and the 156 second-worst model in the 2002 Which? reliability survey. The 156 came ninth from last in the 2002 Auto Express satisfaction survey; it didn't do too well in the 2002 JD Power survey either. Meanwhile 4car's user tests on the 156 are riddled with niggling faults, and Alfa dealers get a very mixed assessment. Be aware what you're letting yourself in for.

http://www.channel4.com/4car/rt/alfa+romeo/156/38/3

3 months old and 3 times in the repair shop. I am starting not to trust the car. My wife is worried about taking it on a long journey. Legendary Alfa unreliability exists, despite media claims that Alfa has stopped the rot.

http://www.carsurvey.org/review_33651.html

Selespeed system failure on 3 occasions causing the steering to lock up. Gear selection problems causing the car to change from 2nd to 5th (resulted in a new gearbox). The car would slip into neutral from 2nd gear while accelerating. VDC system failure followed by a complete electrical system and engine shut down, causing me to wait for 10 hours for a breakdown truck in freezing weather (Jan 30th 2003). Air-bag warning light permanently on as a result of loose wiring under the passenger seat. The car's performance is more than adequate on UK roads, but it does drink fuel and oil. But the BIG problem is reliability. The car has been off the road on 4 separate occasions, and the root cause always seems to be electrical. This is definitely the last Alfa I buy.

http://www.carsurvey.org/review_36302.html

My Alfa Romeo 156 has cost me £21,900 to run in 4 years and I have nothing to show for it, apart from this blog, a few photos and a near death experience.

http://www.u-first.co.uk/2006/12/alfa-romeo-156-review-reliability-and.html

I actually know a 147 owner who had this problem almost two years ago. The bonnet opened while he was driving on the motorway at (luckely, only) 80 km/h. I don't have to tell how nasty this could have ended. In his case he didn't hit anybody else, and the only damage was to his own car: bonnet catch (duh) bonnet, windshield and roof. The car was 1 year old and due to the damage at the roof it was almost a complete write off.

http://www.alfa156.net/tech/fr_index.html?/tech/bonnetcatch.html

Q.F.T.

Third Opinion · 7 Jan 2008 at 21:53

Selespeed again still nothing about the Q-system automatic that you claim fails so often. Both that have know been replaced by the Q-tronic.

Have you managed to find anything on the 1.9JTD that supposedly doesn't exist?

Usel · 7 Jan 2008 at 21:59

Rover 75 Diesel Automatic. Ok, it's slightly on the large side but an 05 plate can be had for around 5k-6k with plenty of toys and they have a good gearbox in them.

Example:
http://search.autotrader.co.uk/es-uk/www/cars/ROVER+75/Ne-2-4-5-6-7-8-27-44-49-53-61-64-67-103-133-146,N-51-63-143-4294966866-4294966929/advert.action?R=200801301303781&distance=184&postcode=ip145pl&channel=CARS&make=ROVER&model=75&min_pr=&max_pr=&max_mileage=

merlin · 7 Jan 2008 at 22:00

Staying on topic is so 2007.

MarkDavis · 7 Jan 2008 at 22:04

Third Opinion said:
still nothing about the Q-system automatic that you claim fails so often.

That's because they only sold about 5 of them.

BigglesPiP · 8 Jan 2008 at 00:20

MarkDavis said:
You've got be joking.

All the 'robotised' manuals - and there aren't that many of them - have absolutely terrible reviews. Citroen Sensodrive anyone? Dog slow too not only in the time it takes to effect a change but also the engines to which they're mated. Alfa Selespeed must be the most unreliable gearbox on the face of the planet. 90% of owners end up with the gearbox slipping in neutral of its own accord whilst pulling into a fast roundabout... Unless of course, you're referring SMG sequential boxes or Tiptronic type boxes which aren't technically robotised manuals.

That's the early 156 Selespeed, as has been mentioned the later FIAT/Alfa boxes are one of the more reliable units on the roads.

And My granddad's Punto is always showing >60mpg on the computer. Try that with a torque converter.

Edit:
Oh and; Alfa 159 1.9 JTD-M, 16V, 150bhp, Automatic, 39.8mpg combined cycle.

Third Opinion · 8 Jan 2008 at 08:17

MarkDavis said:
For the third year running, Alfa Romeo has one of the lowest average mileages and some of the youngest cars in this survey, yet it continues to sit near the bottom of the reliability table.

There is little improvement on its showing in last year’s survey, with just 0.1% fewer claims per 100 cars. What’s more, Alfas are among the most expensive and time-consuming cars to fix when things do go wrong, with an average repair cost of £423 and an average repair time of nearly four hours.
http://www.whatcar.co.uk/news-specia...350&EL=3142807

Three years out of date based on models that have been mostly discontinued.

MarkDavis said:
Used Alfas cost more to repair than any other make, according to Warranty Direct. Alfas came joint worst for breakdowns in the German ADAC survey in 2001. Alfa was fourth-worst manufacturer and the 156 second-worst model in the 2002 Which? reliability survey. The 156 came ninth from last in the 2002 Auto Express satisfaction survey; it didn't do too well in the 2002 JD Power survey either. Meanwhile 4car's user tests on the 156 are riddled with niggling faults, and Alfa dealers get a very mixed assessment. Be aware what you're letting yourself in for.
http://www.channel4.com/4car/rt/alfa+romeo/156/38/3

Sigh, 7 years out of date based on a range of cars that has been completely discontinued with the exception of a few remaining 147's.

MarkDavis said:
3 months old and 3 times in the repair shop. I am starting not to trust the car. My wife is worried about taking it on a long journey. Legendary Alfa unreliability exists, despite media claims that Alfa has stopped the rot.
http://www.carsurvey.org/review_33651.html

Carsurvey, there is also hundreds of posts about unreliable BMW's if you take time to read instead of just flame.

MarkDavis said:
Selespeed system failure on 3 occasions causing the steering to lock up. Gear selection problems causing the car to change from 2nd to 5th (resulted in a new gearbox). The car would slip into neutral from 2nd gear while accelerating. VDC system failure followed by a complete electrical system and engine shut down, causing me to wait for 10 hours for a breakdown truck in freezing weather (Jan 30th 2003). Air-bag warning light permanently on as a result of loose wiring under the passenger seat. The car's performance is more than adequate on UK roads, but it does drink fuel and oil. But the BIG problem is reliability. The car has been off the road on 4 separate occasions, and the root cause always seems to be electrical. This is definitely the last Alfa I buy.
http://www.carsurvey.org/review_36302.html

As stated above and we were not talking diesel selespeed as it does not exist.

MarkDavis said:
My Alfa Romeo 156 has cost me £21,900 to run in 4 years and I have nothing to show for it, apart from this blog, a few photos and a near death experience.
http://www.u-first.co.uk/2006/12/alf...ility-and.html

I actually know a 147 owner who had this problem almost two years ago. The bonnet opened while he was driving on the motorway at (luckely, only) 80 km/h. I don't have to tell how nasty this could have ended. In his case he didn't hit anybody else, and the only damage was to his own car: bonnet catch (duh) bonnet, windshield and roof. The car was 1 year old and due to the damage at the roof it was almost a complete write off.
http://www.alfa156.net/tech/fr_index...nnetcatch.html

Q.F.T.

Bonnet catch failures. Extremely rare but easily cured by spraying WD40 on them every 3 years or so.

I think we have pushed this topic off course now enough don't you?

MarkDavis · 8 Jan 2008 at 08:22

Out of date, discontinued models? What on earth are you talking about. 156s/147s have been Alfa Romeo's main cars for the last 10 years. It doesn't matter whether the 156 has NOW been replaced by the 159 because the 147 is still in production and will remain so until 2009. In any event the 156/147 are mechanically the same car so you can bet your bottom dollar that if the cambelt of your 156 snaps at 40k, so will the cambelt on your 147.

I think you're the only one in denial about the unreliability of Alfa Romeos. Even the UK owner's clubs admit that they're more costly to run, more things go wrong etc etc than the average car. The 147s/156s are somewhere alongside the Peugeot 307 in terms of reliability. The GTV is disastrous and the 159 is unlikely to even be on a par with the last generation Ford Mondeo in terms of unreliability despite its so called 'executive' level status.

Third Opinion · 8 Jan 2008 at 09:07

MarkDavis said:
Out of date, discontinued models? What on earth are you talking about. 156s/147s have been Alfa Romeo's main cars for the last 10 years. It doesn't matter whether the 156 has NOW been replaced by the 159 because the 147 is still in production and will remain so until 2009. In any event the 156/147 are mechanically the same car so you can bet your bottom dollar that if the cambelt of your 156 snaps at 40k, so will the cambelt on your 147.

I think you're the only one in denial about the unreliability of Alfa Romeos. Even the UK owner's clubs admit that they're more costly to run, more things go wrong etc etc than the average car. The 147s/156s are somewhere alongside the Peugeot 307 in terms of reliability. The GTV is disastrous and the 159 is unlikely to even be on a par with the last generation Ford Mondeo in terms of unreliability despite its so called 'executive' level status.

Somebody give the CD a nudge it's spurting out same old carp over and over again.

I am in denial about Alfa reliability just as much as you are in denial about getting the Ultimate Driving Experince from a lower end of the range 3 series BM.