High-tech Cars Replacing Driver Skill?

merlin said:
Hell yeah, no aids is where the fun is at, no doubt about it.

Fortunately the majority of motorists dont want these sort of cars though, hey want something nice and safe - with lots of gizmo's - that's suits me down to the ground. Feed the masses as much electronic wizzardry as possible I say - less chance of them putting me in Hospital. :D
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If it keeps them safe whilst I have a fantastic time then I'm a happy chappy :D
 
Whilst these 'new' cars with all the electronic aids are there to assist the driver, would the average driver be able to react if these fail? I highly doubt it. I doubt they'd even be able to recognise what kind over trouble they'd experience if X went wrong, even with the warning lights. I know my partner would fair terribly!

And when the currently new cars are 10 years old and poorly maintained, how effective will these aids be?

Personally, I prefer no driver aids, as I feel the car and road communicate better to me as a driver (I have however, been on several driving courses though) and act accordingly. But, in a car with driving aids, I believe the average motorist would fair better eg, ABS vs pumping brakes.
 
You'd swear they did the test in a DeTomaso Mangusta or a Chevrolet Corvair, not a 1990 3-series! I think the test shows we have indeed become complacent with the advent of driver aids.
In many cases, this may not be a bad thing. I've sat in the car with my mum and I'd rather she had something with ABS/ESP/DDR/SCSI/B&Q and whatever else they can stick to it because she's absolutely horrific at observation and car control. The more technobumpf on the car, the less likely she is to kill herself or someone else due to her lack of skill.

You will always get posts complaining about the interference of driver aids on this forum because there are a lot of highly enthusiastic car folk here - some who genuinely know their stuff. And for those people it is sad that we (generally) are becoming less adept at car control and more reliant on driver aids.

For what it's worth merlin, I think it's sad that we don't generally have or need the skills hunt and build log cabins and so on.
 
merlin said:
Fortunately the majority of motorists dont want these sort of cars though, hey want something nice and safe - with lots of gizmo's
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My problem is that out of financial necessity the motor manufacturers have to pander to the majority. There's very few cars been built in the last 10 years or so that I particularly want to own. I'm already preparing myself for a time where I'll essentially have to give up on enjoying driving because I won't practically be able to run the kind of car which allows you to enjoy driving it.
 
What I think has been missed (might be wrong) is that things like ABS have been designed around human reactions. What will average motorist do if something pulls out in front of him? Stamp the brake pedal to the floor. ABS and in conjuction with EBD(Electroininc Brake Force Distribution) and EBA (Emergency brake assist) use this reaction to not only maximise the cars stopping ability by individually braking each wheel to the maximium traction it has(physically impossible for a driver to do) but also shift braking power to the rear wheels, helping to retain car stability and all the while still allowing the car to be steered.

Traction control is another thing which for the vast majority of people is a benefit as it again manages (at least in some occasions) to perform feats which a person cannot do. By reading the reactions of the tyres etc to the power being passed thru them it can reaction to sudden unexpected changes in traction caused for example by diesel on a wet road. By reacting to the change by reducing power etc much faster than a person can then it keeps the car going roughtly where intended.

I enjoy driving but I will never buy a car again without ABS, even a small car for my other half will have ABS. Traction control and the stability management systems just add to the safetynet.

Steve
 
The other problem that crops up is some manufacturers (I'm looking at you Alfa and Seat, but you aren't the only ones) use things like TS and ESP to hide the handling problems of their cars. If you've ever tried driving an Alfa 147 GTA with the TC turned off you'll know what I mean :)

It seems that instead of using them as a safety aid, they use them to compensate or disguise the fact that they car handles like a sack of spanners thrown down a cliff....
 
Does power steering count as high-tech? :p

I've had 2 cars, one with p/s one without. I prefer the one without because I can feel the road so much better in it, but on the other hand it takes more effort to park.

The thread title also reminds me of the time JC drove the Evo 8 around the track with just his little finger with the back-end out around a corner. Doesn't appeal to me.
 
Dolph said:
The other problem that crops up is some manufacturers (I'm looking at you Alfa and Seat, but you aren't the only ones) use things like TS and ESP to hide the handling problems of their cars. If you've ever tried driving an Alfa 147 GTA with the TC turned off you'll know what I mean :)

It seems that instead of using them as a safety aid, they use them to compensate or disguise the fact that they car handles like a sack of spanners thrown down a cliff....
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Its strange that the 147 is so bad as I test drove the 156 GTA a lot, which only has traction control not the Stability management system and that was fine. Once you got over the 1.7 turns lock to lock steering which made for some interesting junction cutting...

Steve
 
The only car I have ever been in that has gone completely and utterly out of control was a 54 reg volvo S40 1.6 packed with all the safety features. Coming round a damp bend on a narrow country road and the back end flicks out, driver corrects it but the back then goes the other way and it almost span out into a tree.

About 20 minutes earlier I was traveling along the same road at the same speed in an E36 325 with ditch finders. I am pretty sure the driver saved it when the volvo lost control and most probably learnt it from driving the 325...
 
Lopéz said:
You will always get posts complaining about the interference of driver aids on this forum because there are a lot of highly enthusiastic car folk here - some who genuinely know their stuff. And for those people it is sad that we (generally) are becoming less adept at car control and more reliant on driver aids.
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whilst i agree with the above in principle,i have to say that the VAST majority of posts complaining that they detest driver aids so much come from people that have,at best,mediocre abilities and inexperienced attitude/understandings based on their posting content.
most people that moan about them do it because they've read someone elses opinion saying the same thing..typically a member who has previously established they know what they're talking about.
i include you in that group,although that's no slur on your name whatsoever.
 
The_Dark_Side said:
i include you in that group,although that's no slur on your name whatsoever.
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I can see you coming to eat those words im afraid. Lopez has driving skills of the highest order - spending a few minutes doing reasonable speeds confirms this. The fact he apparrently knows almost everything there is to know about preparing rally cars (from preparing his own over many years) underpins this. If I remember rightly, he also used to compete and is planning to return once his rally project is finished.

Not someone I personally would brand as inexperienced and re-posting other people's opinions, but each to their own.
 
DRZ said:
I can see you coming to eat those words im afraid. Lopez has driving skills of the highest order - spending a few minutes doing reasonable speeds confirms this. The fact he apparrently knows almost everything there is to know about preparing rally cars (from preparing his own over many years) underpins this. If I remember rightly, he also used to compete and is planning to return once his rally project is finished.

Not someone I personally would brand as inexperienced and re-posting other people's opinions, but each to their own.
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you mis-understand me my friend.
what i was trying to say was that Lopez is one of the people who regularly has his own opinion quoted,sometimes almost verbatim,without the particular member knowing why.
it's a case of "Lopez knows a lot,and i've seen him say XYZ so i'll agree and post the same thing"
if Lopez has an opinion then at least he actually has the experience to arrive at that conclusion,whereas many just repeat what they read.

and just as i wasn't insulting Lopez in my previous post,i'm not kissing his posterior in this one.
 
The_Dark_Side said:
you mis-understand me my friend.
what i was trying to say was that Lopez is one of the people who regularly has his own opinion quoted,sometimes almost verbatim,without the particular member knowing why.
it's a case of "Lopez knows a lot,and i've seen him say XYZ so i'll agree and post the same thing"
if Lopez has an opinion then at least he actually has the experience to arrive at that conclusion,whereas many just repeat what they read.

and just as i wasn't insulting Lopez in my previous post,i'm not kissing his posterior in this one.
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I see! Wasnt crystal clear, but I accept that I misunderstood :)

Good to see your clarification on your arse-kissing there :p
 
DRZ said:
I see! Wasnt crystal clear, but I accept that I misunderstood :)
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i know how that feels matey....i've resigned myself to the fact that it's unlikely i will be understood in my own time ;)
DRZ said:
Good to see your clarification on your arse-kissing there :p
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hell no,he's welsh......it'd probably have some leek or daffodil based taste :p
 
DRZ said:
I can see you coming to eat those words im afraid. Lopez has driving skills of the highest order - spending a few minutes doing reasonable speeds confirms this. The fact he apparrently knows almost everything there is to know about preparing rally cars (from preparing his own over many years) underpins this. If I remember rightly, he also used to compete and is planning to return once his rally project is finished.

Not someone I personally would brand as inexperienced and re-posting other people's opinions, but each to their own.
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Steady on Durz, people will talk if you carry on like that :o
 
weeble said:
Whilst these 'new' cars with all the electronic aids are there to assist the driver, would the average driver be able to react if these fail? I highly doubt it. I doubt they'd even be able to recognise what kind over trouble they'd experience if X went wrong, even with the warning lights. I know my partner would fair terribly!

And when the currently new cars are 10 years old and poorly maintained, how effective will these aids be?

Personally, I prefer no driver aids, as I feel the car and road communicate better to me as a driver (I have however, been on several driving courses though) and act accordingly. But, in a car with driving aids, I believe the average motorist would fair better eg, ABS vs pumping brakes.
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SEE?!?!? Someone else that sees it like I do!!!! :D

FINALLY!! I have a proponent in my corner!! This is what I've been saying all along about all these electronic aids. Yes, they are fantastic at what they do. When they are new. But electronics in a car degrade over time. Connectors corrode, components inside modules get vibrated loose, casingsexpand and contract from heat/cold. Being hard-mounted to a car is a most violent place to be as far as being shaken and vibrated to bits goes. Especially pre suspension, which is where almost all of the sensors for these systems are located.

And all it takes is one sensor to be slightly degraded (it doesn't even have to be completely broken) and the entire system is rendered useless. And 99% of the time the only way you find out that a sensor is FUBAR'd is when you're sitting on the wrong side of a hedge. Accelerometers cannot be verified in a POST. So there is no way for a system to self test the one and only way for a steering control / anti-skid-out device to get input. It's also half of the input for ABS. And accelerometers are not exactly a bulletproof item. They DO break.

So what's going to happen when all these systems start degrading due to age? That article sums it up pretty much a lot better than I ever could. The majority of drivers are going to find themselves upsidedown/compacted/wrong-side-of-hedge syndrome/in jail for vehicular manslaughter. Why? Because they've been pampered for so long by these systems that they've forgotten the absolute basics of driving a car, and when the systems failed them, they had no idea what to do and were completely screwed.

And yes, my wife is one of them. Luckily for me she takes it nice and slow when she first gets into a different car and sees what it is like before she really starts to drive it. I know she annoys the hell out of me when she's driving the truck. It needs a front end alignment in the worst possible way, so she only drives it at about 35-45mph max. Even on a clear dry 55mph highway. Annoying? Yes. Safety to the extreme? Yes.

But put her in her Neon with its ABS and aftermarket brakes and suspension and she's hooning it around 15mph corners at 25+!!

I messed with her one day right before the block heater popped on it and pulled the fuse on the ABS system. She about put it in a ditch trying to turn the corner and brake simultaneously!! She couldn't understand why the car wasn't performing right!! Her response when I told her about the fuse?




Ready for this?





"Put it back!! I've gotten used to it the way it's supposed to be!! I'd crash the car with it like this!!"

Sound familiar?
 
Dolph said:
There is a problem when people rely on these systems too much. The systems themselves are not the problem, reliance on them is.

If I cut my ABS in, it's because I've screwed up my anticipation and over-braked, or misread the road. likewise if I'm in a car with TC and that cuts in (assuming a reasonably setup system) it's because I'm doing things wrong.
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Or your on the road with different levels of grip and types of surface...

If my ABS ever kicks in i never feel like ive done something 'wrong'. Id love to see how fast you actually are Dolph behind a wheel cos i get the impression you consider yourself in the top 1% of drivers. :)
 
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