Hillsborough inquest verdict.

[The Running Man]

You just have to watch the videos filmed outside the ground that the fans were pushing and swaying in a redicolous manner before they got in.

the fans created a really bad situation and the police just reacted badly.

had everyone been acting like normal people and queuing in an orderly fashion there would have been no incident.

 

[Burnsy2023]

You just have to watch the videos filmed outside the ground that the fans were pushing and swaying in a redicolous manner before they got in.

the fans created a really bad situation and the police just reacted badly.

had everyone been acting like normal people and queuing in an orderly fashion there would have been no incident.

Humans in crowds act like animals. that's well known and understood which is why open cordons exist: to slow the travel of people in a confined space. This is in any event with lots of people and little control will have these issues - just look at the crush deaths in Mecca.

 

[BaZ87]

Let me pose a hypothetical to show my position on this...

Let's say there was no attempted cover-up during and immediately after the disaster, there was no changed statements and the police investigated their input properly and honestly in the aftermath, let's say there was no abhorrent Sun headline and the tabloid media handled the situation with respect. Then let's say the Taylor Report comes out in the 90s and places the bulk of the 'blame' on the police and the authorities but doesn't specifically state the fans actions played no part and there was no 'unlawful' killing verdict [which the report did basically].

Under those circumstances, do you believe the JFT96 Group would have campaigned for 27 years to have the Taylor report amended with the clarifications they demanded, and got, from the latest inquest?

In my opinion I don't think they would and the Taylor Report would have ended the matter. In other words, I feel the incessant requests for further inquests to specifically absolve the fans of all responsibility is not about a noble quest for the truth, but rather a goal fuelled by vengeance and the understandable desire to turn a disgusting attempt by the police/Sun to whitewash the fans completely on its head so the total opposite was made 'official' in some way.

Stunning.

Just to clarify, we're imagining a scenario where the police didn't do all these things but we're going to accept the findings of the report that was based on the police's deceitful actions?

Had the police not lied and covered up their **** ups then not only would an unlawful killing verdict most likely have been reached first time around (it was the inquests that followed not the Taylor report that came to the verdict) but 41 of those that died would have stood a chance of still being alive today.

 

[Tefal]

Humans in crowds act like animals. .

interesting choice of words given thoae solely blaming the polcie in this thread have repetedly blamed the polcie for treating the wupportera like "animals".

Perhapd thier misatke was treating them like people

 

[Chris Wilson]

No one has mentioned the Heysel Stadium incident. It would have been nice had some mention of the people killed by rioting supporters over there had some sort of mention. 39 killed, about 600 injured. Maybe because it was in 1985 many are too young to recall it? It set a precedent for authorities to be very jittery when football "fans" decided to run amok, or gather in large groups in small areas, and that scenario was all too common back then. The fear of a repeat may well have swayed judgements.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heysel_Stadium_disaster


http://www.theanfieldwrap.com/2013/05/what-about-justice-for-heysel/

 

[glenimp617]

If you stuck your hand in a lions cage, who's fault it is when it gets bitten off

The lions because he's bitten it off, or the person for sticking it in the cage?

We know the lion eats hands, which is why we build cages to prevent people from sticking their hands in

 

[ps3ud0]

interesting choice of words given thoae solely blaming the polcie in this thread have repetedly blamed the polcie for treating the wupportera like "animals".

Perhapd thier misatke was treating them like people

I dont think Burnsy2023 meant that, more that animal psychology plays a significant part once humans are in a large crowd and act very much like any animal herd/swarm.

Today buildings and exits are built on such psychology - for an example an obstruction in front of an exit helps move people in a more ordered manner than if the exit itself was clear to two way traffic...

ps3ud0

 

[Burnsy2023]

I dont think Burnsy2023 meant that, more that animal psychology plays a significant part once humans are in a large crowd and act very much like any animal herd/swarm.

Today buildings and exits are built on such psychology - for an example an obstruction in front of an exit helps move people in a more ordered manner than if the exit itself was clear to two way traffic...

ps3ud0

Indeed. I'm not blaming anyone, just making the point that if you put people in a position where this could be a problem they will act in a certain way - like many animals would.

 

[Tefal]

I dont think Burnsy2023 meant that, more that animal psychology plays a significant part once humans are in a large crowd and act very much like any animal herd/swarm.

Today buildings and exits are built on such psychology - for an example an obstruction in front of an exit helps move people in a more ordered manner than if the exit itself was clear to two way traffic...

ps3ud0

I know it just tickled me

 

[dowie]

No one has mentioned the Heysel Stadium incident.

you should try reading the thread before making claims about what has and hasn't been mentioned...

 

[dowie]

Humans in crowds act like animals. that's well known and understood which is why open cordons exist: to slow the travel of people in a confined space. This is in any event with lots of people and little control will have these issues - just look at the crush deaths in Mecca.

yup crushes and panics could potentially happen in any number of crowds though different crowds do have different behaviours... a crowd at a football match is rather different to a crowd at a rugby or cricket match, you don['t necessarily have to separate supporters to stop them from surging forwards and fighting each other even at the latter two

 

[estebanrey]

Stunning.

Just to clarify, we're imagining a scenario where the police didn't do all these things but we're going to accept the findings of the report that was based on the police's deceitful actions?

Well clearly not because implicit in my hypothetical situation is that the Police acted properly so the report would have been based on honesty...in my hypothetical.

The Taylor Report found that the main reason for the disaster was the failure of police control. It did that in reality and I'm suggesting had it also done that under my hypothetical I believe that no further recourse, actions, apologies or inquest would have been sought.

Had the police not lied and covered up their **** ups then not only would an unlawful killing verdict most likely have been reached first time around (it was the inquests that followed not the Taylor report that came to the verdict) but 41 of those that died would have stood a chance of still being alive today.

Really? Unlawful Killing verdicts are given for accidents caused by incompetence usually are they? Genuine question.

 

[dowie]

The irony of Scam's post, criticising clubs for not controlling fans is that 1 of the biggest factors behind the calls for clubs to pay for policing of a wider area is because of how successful clubs have been at forcing the small number of idiots out of football. The minority of idiot that call themselves supporters and travel around causing trouble can no longer get near top level football grounds.

sounds doubtful - sounds more like funding being the driver (which might allow for greater resources sure). But there isn't much else value they can add there surely other than money? When you're talking about the stadium itself the clubs can contribute to surveillance/CCTV, they can ban fans from their games etc.. they've got no control over the city centre so can't add value in that sense there - just money

 

[The Running Man]

Took a guest from the US to UTD tbe other week. He was shocked home and away fans had to be segregated. They have big crowds all over the world.

fact is the fans were riotous from the start and the police failed to handle it and then covered their actions.

 

[glenimp617]

Perhapd thier misatke was treating them like people

I know this was probably a light hearted joke, but it has actually crossed my mind

 

[tom_e]

I know this was probably a light hearted joke, but it has actually crossed my mind

To be honest from experience in situations like this treating people like humans gets you no where, issuing commands in the same way you would to something like a dog on the other hand is quite effective.

 

[BaZ87]

Well clearly not because implicit in my hypothetical situation is that the Police acted properly so the report would have been based on honesty...in my hypothetical.

The Taylor Report found that the main reason for the disaster was the failure of police control. It did that in reality and I'm suggesting had it also done that under my hypothetical I believe that no further recourse, actions, apologies or inquest would have been sought.

The Taylor report wouldn't have found the same things had the police acted differently though, can't you see that? Your scenario was the police acting differently but assuming the findings of the Taylor report would be the same.

Really? Unlawful Killing verdicts are given for accidents caused by incompetence usually are they? Genuine question.

Gross negligence, yes. The match was held in an unsafe stadium, the authorities knew this - there was no safety certificate and concerns had been raised about the stadium in the years and days before the game. The disaster very nearly happened a few years earlier.

You then have the decisions of the police - the failure to delay the kick-off, to open exit gate C, to not close off the central pens or divert fans to the outer pens. We then come to your makebelieve scenario where the police then didn't lie about drunk, ticketless supporters forcing the gate open, and begin painting a picture that they were blameless and instead opened the front gates of the pens (like they did a few years earlier when a similar crush happened), instead of calling for police dogs they called for ambulances and do you know what? Maybe a lot fewer than 96 people would have died that day.

 

[BaZ87]

sounds doubtful - sounds more like funding being the driver (which might allow for greater resources sure). But there isn't much else value they can add there surely other than money? When you're talking about the stadium itself the clubs can contribute to surveillance/CCTV, they can ban fans from their games etc.. they've got no control over the city centre so can't add value in that sense there - just money

What's doubtful?

I know they have no control over whether an idiot wants to start a fight in the city centre or a train station. Clubs can only control what goes on in and around the grounds and, generally speaking, have what goes on in and around stadiums under control. That's led to calls for clubs to pay for policing in the city centres too as the minority of idiots that cause trouble can't do so around the ground (most can't and don't even attend games) and will meet in other areas.

 

[estebanrey]

The Taylor report wouldn't have found the same things had the police acted differently though, can't you see that? Your scenario was the police acting differently but assuming the findings of the Taylor report would be the same.

The Taylor Report blamed the police DESPITE their cover-ups, so had they been honest it would have still blamed them wouldn't it?

The point I'm making, which you are missing or deliberately ignoring, is that I believe the families would have been happy with that but that they've only continued to push for further enquiries because of the attempted whitewash by the police to blame the fans which they then wanted completely reversed to the exact opposite (i.e. Police 100% to blame and fans 0%).

Gross negligence, yes. The match was held in an unsafe stadium, the authorities knew this - there was no safety certificate and concerns had been raised about the stadium in the years and days before the game. The disaster very nearly happened a few years earlier.

You then have the decisions of the police - the failure to delay the kick-off, to open exit gate C, to not close off the central pens or divert fans to the outer pens. We then come to your makebelieve scenario where the police then didn't lie about drunk, ticketless supporters forcing the gate open, and begin painting a picture that they were blameless and instead opened the front gates of the pens (like they did a few years earlier when a similar crush happened), instead of calling for police dogs they called for ambulances and do you know what? Maybe a lot fewer than 96 people would have died that day.

I thought unlawful killing was generally used for things more than gross negligence. Like in a fight you punched someone and they fell and cracked their head, or a police marksmen killing someone against guidelines. In other words when a deliberate attempt to harm head been made, rather than a culmination of mistakes that resulted in tragedy.

To use an example, lots of horrible mistakes, negligence and bad procedures led to the death of 56 people in the Bradford City fire, the club were found to be responsible and yet there was no "unlawful killing" verdict for those victims (they got 'death misadventure').

 

[mattyg]

The Taylor report wouldn't have found the same things had the police acted differently though, can't you see that? Your scenario was the police acting differently but assuming the findings of the Taylor report would be the same.



Gross negligence, yes. The match was held in an unsafe stadium, the authorities knew this - there was no safety certificate and concerns had been raised about the stadium in the years and days before the game. The disaster very nearly happened a few years earlier.

You then have the decisions of the police - the failure to delay the kick-off, to open exit gate C, to not close off the central pens or divert fans to the outer pens. We then come to your makebelieve scenario where the police then didn't lie about drunk, ticketless supporters forcing the gate open, and begin painting a picture that they were blameless and instead opened the front gates of the pens (like they did a few years earlier when a similar crush happened), instead of calling for police dogs they called for ambulances and do you know what? Maybe a lot fewer than 96 people would have died that day.

+1

Sometimes you need to spell it out to people. I think this post is the closest to it so far