Hive install Query - Combi w/tank

[~Divine~Wind~]

hey all,

Been a while since I looked at these and when we moved I couldn't find the original Thermostat so had to leave my hive behind.

The new setup is:

Combi: Ideal Logic H15
Controller: Therma TQX0027
Stat x2: Therma TQX0073 (one for downstairs and one for bedrooms)
Water Tank: Evocyl 18L EVO HO STD 2Z (immersion OFF! lol)

The controller and stats are woeful compared to the Hive system we had, also have no idea when stuffs on or how the house is keeping temp!

I'm a little confused as to what the correct install should be for this and got great help on here last time

Woudl I be correct in assuming that the install route I need is a Hive for Combi and then an additional stat?
This would be 1 hub connected to the router but 2 receivers connected to the boiler I think?

Annoyingly I've confirmed the new build lot have said that all the controllers and stats are hard wired :/

 

[squerble]

hey all,

Been a while since I looked at these and when we moved I couldn't find the original Thermostat so had to leave my hive behind.

The new setup is:

Combi: Ideal Logic H15
Controller: Therma TQX0027
Stat x2: Therma TQX0073 (one for downstairs and one for bedrooms)
Water Tank: Evocyl 18L EVO HO STD 2Z (immersion OFF! lol)

The controller and stats are woeful compared to the Hive system we had, also have no idea when stuffs on or how the house is keeping temp!

I'm a little confused as to what the correct install should be for this and got great help on here last time

Woudl I be correct in assuming that the install route I need is a Hive for Combi and then an additional stat?
This would be 1 hub connected to the router but 2 receivers connected to the boiler I think?

Annoyingly I've confirmed the new build lot have said that all the controllers and stats are hard wired :/

If you have a hot water tank, you don't have a combi boiler you just have a system boiler (also known as heat-only, hence the H in the model designator).

The hardwires will likely go to the back of the current stats - those wires would have to be pulled back to the wiring centre which is probably in your airing cupboard with the tank and put into the wireless receivers instead, with the actual Hive thermostat going on the wall were the previous stats were, but talking wirelessly now.

If you currently have two 'stats, then you will likely have 3 zone valves in the same hot water tank cupboard, which will mean you have an "S-plan" system. Google around for "hive s-plan" and you'll probably get a few hits from plumbing and DIY forums. I'm not sure if Hive can do S-plan with multiple zones, so that's what you'll have to forage for in your Googling.

If you have to go with Hive, I think you'll have to get one that does heating and hot water (NOT COMBI) and comes with a Hub, and then get another one that does heating alone with receiver (but without hub), but as above, I'm not sure if Hive supports S-plan with multi-zone.

 

[squerble]

Looks like the Drayton Wiser is available in a 3-channel kit, which would cover both heating zones and hot water: https://www.draytoncontrols.co.uk/product/wiser-thermostat-kit-3-0

You could also upgrade this system in the future by getting the smart TRVs for each radiator to have per-room control.

 

[physichull]

Tado systems can also do separate hot water and central heating control too, they come with a thermostat and a hub that has a bunch of relays in it to turn boiler off and on and connected via a bridge that plugs into your router.

I recently had to learn a lot about how my system worked recently as it had a wiring fault in the wiring centre that i managed to figure out but took a while to understand how it all came together. I too had an s type system open vented gravity fed (two tanks in loft and hw cylinder) for some reason the hw and ch weren't wired correctly so every time you turned the heating on the hot water came on too, but then the cylinder thermostat turned the whole thing off once it reached temperature! Crazy stuff and for a total novice took me a while to figure out.

 

[~Divine~Wind~]

Oh ok, so this isn't how I thought it was lol

I thought he boiler heated up the water then dumped it into the tank
Then the tank had an immersion as well for if the gas goes off.

The power to the tank has been off since we moved in and the hot water has been fine.
The cupboard is a mass of pipes and wires

They've installed a smart meter for the electric, a standard meter for the gas and the wireless doodah they've provided to show us what were using just constantly disconnects.

 

[physichull]

So based on my fairly novice knowledge (others in this thread are far more knowledgeable than I), the three small white boxes, one on each pipe are your zone valves, the plastic box on the floor next to the switch (which I am presuming is for the immersion heater but not sure) will likely contain all your wiring connections known as the wiring centre. I think the little white cylinder near the bottom of your hw cylinder is the hw thermostat. I THINK that the black and silver thing at the bottom is your pump.

I might be wrong and there might be other systems, but I always thought that your hot water in the cylinder got heated via convection from spiraling pipes inside the cylinder? Not hot water supplied directly from the boiler? So there is essentially a cold in at the bottom and a hot out at the top with a hot from the boiler in and out at the side (which goes through coiled pipes).

We have our immersion heater off because the water stays fairly hot in the tank and due to a quirk in our system that I don't fully understand it heats the water when you put the heating on, then the cylinder thermostat cuts the hw once it gets up to temp and the ch just stays on. Its weird and not sure quite why the two arent totally independent but seems workable.

When you install your new Hive/Tado system you should be able to see the actuators move on the zone valves to know they are coming on (should still be able to see that happening now when you turn your heating or water on). As mentioned in an earlier post, you need a Hive / Tado system with the control box on the wall (usually near your boiler) and it will have a live, neutral and '3' and '4' connectors, with 3 being hw and 4 being ch. So you would need to wire your hive control box to this so that you have separate control for ch and hw.

 

[rumple9]

Are these things easy to install or do you need an electrician? I was thinking of getting a TADO because my energy is offering 35% off but you also have to buy the individual radiator thermostat TRVs which cost £50 each

 

[physichull]

I have a tado system but you don't need to buy the TRVs (unless you mean that is the condition of the offer?), you can just have the thermostat and control box.

They are easy to install. You connect the internet bridge to your modem, then you install the wall thermostat most likely just replacing your existing one (it needs three AAA batteries to work the screen). Then if you need to change the box with the wireless receiver control box then you simply take the old one off the wall and put the new one on, being careful to ensure that you get the wiring correct (live, neutral and the 3 and 4). The tado app provides bespoke instructions so you enter the details of your exisiting thermostat and it gives bespoke instructions to change to the new tado one.

The only downside is that tado dont have a phone support line if you need help asap, you have to email them. They do respond but can be slow.

 

[squerble]

Oh ok, so this isn't how I thought it was lol

I thought he boiler heated up the water then dumped it into the tank
Then the tank had an immersion as well for if the gas goes off.

The power to the tank has been off since we moved in and the hot water has been fine.
The cupboard is a mass of pipes and wires

[snipped image]

They've installed a smart meter for the electric, a standard meter for the gas and the wireless doodah they've provided to show us what were using just constantly disconnects.

This is a well laid-out and labelled system actually. As best as I can tell, it goes like this...

Starting with the pipes, in "flow" direction:

* From the floor, the pipe with black cable ties is the flow/send from the boiler. The first silver and black device is the pump.
* Go up, then we hit the T:
- go right and down, and the exposed bit of copper with the silver box is the hot water valve. This opens and allows hot water to flow in the heating coil in the tank (it's a coiled pipe within the tank that heats up the water in there - the two water systems do not mix. You'd be very, very ill if they did!
- go left, then up, then left and we hit the two heating zone valves. The pipes are cabled-tied yellow to signify heating. These pipes go and feed the radiators.
- go left, then down, and this is the return pipe, with white cable ties. You'll see there is a pipe coming back out of the tank which joins this and this then goes back down through the floor to the boiler return. This loop also allows the pump to run and not damage the system in case the pump somehow starts running but none of the three valves are open.
* Pipes with blue cable ties are cold water. You can see it goes into the tank at the bottom. There is also what appears to be a header tank (the white one top right) which will provide additional pressure into the hot water system.
* Pipes with red cable ties are hot water. You can see the pipes start towards the top, and on the top of the tank. These go off to your taps. The red tank top left I assume is an expansion vessel but I'm not sure on that.

Cables and junction boxes:
* On the floor, this looks to be the incoming mains. This feeds the switch to the right which powers the immersion heater (the round, white part just above the system pump). There's also a cable that goes up to...
* The white box towards the top of the tank with yellow mains label is the wiring centre. Out of the bottom, the black cables power the zone valves and the pump, and the white cable goes to the cyclinder thermostat, which is the square white box just to the left of the immersion heater, under the return (white cable tied) pipe.
* One of the two white cables coming out of the top likely carries the signals from the room thermostats (it'll probably split in the bottom white box and go off to each of the two stats).

There's a few extra pipes and stuff but that's all you need to know.

This is definitely an "S plan" system. I'd imagine there is way for Tado, Hive, Nest, all of them, to power an S plan system (as they are now very common and the most flexible install with a water tank), you'll just have to check each system's install guides etc.

 

[physichull]

Top reply above.

I got sent this from a heating engineer I know, which may help.

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[squerble]

Top reply above.

I got sent this from a heating engineer I know, which may help.

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Yep looks good. You'll sometimes get variation on where the boiler, pump, and mains are fed/split from but this is about it. This video from John Ward is also a good one, and talks through how everything links:

To the OP: for any smart system that doesn't natively have "three channel" operation, then you'll likely combine a two channel and single channel. Because your stats are hardwired, those cables would need to be "pulled back" to the wiring centre, and you fit the (two) reciever(s) in the cupboard pictured above, linking into the wiring centre. As above, there could be a bit of variation in how things are linked, but you could piece it together by watching the video, looking at diagrams online, and prodding around in your own wiring centre (making sure to isolate the system first!). You could get lucky and find a wiring diagram on the inside of the wiring centre - some newer installs do this and it really helps.

 

[physichull]

Wish mine had a wiring diagram but my tank cupboard is a bit of a rats nest of cables and the wiring control box is basically a plastic box on the floor similar to the photo above where there are no labels (I added some!) and took a while to figure out what went where.

Those coloured cable ties on the pipes are a really good idea, again, wish mine had them!

I had to get a heating engineer round to help me understand as I only moved in 6 months ago and I think when previous owners installed the tado system they did everything right, apart from some really strange wiring in the control box that didn't follow the diagram above on connections 8 and 10. Corrected those and all works fine now! Before the heating would only come on once the hw cylinder had cooled enough! So heating only came on every 4-5 hours through that cold weather snap! Took me ages to figure out what it was doing and why and then how to correct it. Was interesting but would rather not live through the cold like that again just to find something interesting! At least I now I know ~80% of how my heating system works!

 

[squerble]

Wish mine had a wiring diagram but my tank cupboard is a bit of a rats nest of cables and the wiring control box is basically a plastic box on the floor similar to the photo above where there are no labels (I added some!) and took a while to figure out what went where.

Those coloured cable ties on the pipes are a really good idea, again, wish mine had them!

I had to get a heating engineer round to help me understand as I only moved in 6 months ago and I think when previous owners installed the tado system they did everything right, apart from some really strange wiring in the control box that didn't follow the diagram above on connections 8 and 10. Corrected those and all works fine now! Before the heating would only come on once the hw cylinder had cooled enough! So heating only came on every 4-5 hours through that cold weather snap! Took me ages to figure out what it was doing and why and then how to correct it. Was interesting but would rather not live through the cold like that again just to find something interesting! At least I now I know ~80% of how my heating system works!

Ooops!

I mapped mine out yesterday as I've bought two refurbished Tado wired thermostats (despite my protestations in the other thread ):

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Doesn't match quite how John Ward does it in his video on two heating zones with a combi but was easy enough to figure out once I need what needed feeding and switching from where! Luckily the two Tado stats use the same two wires so they're a straight swap from the current ones!

 

[physichull]

Good man! Love the picture, I'm thinking I should have done that!

Works perfectly now even if the hw still comes on when the ch comes on but then turns off once hw is up to temp and ch stays on. Its weird, possibly cos of the piping but I will take another look in a few weeks to see if I can figure that out as its still puzzling me.

The one thing to note though, when installing the tado system it might be defaulted to just one zone in the app. Because I have a gravity fed system with supposedly "separate" hw/ch I had to email them to add the app functionality for it and install the relevant drivers on the signal box near the boiler. Maybe takes them a day to reply and sort for you if you send them the part ID.

 

[squerble]

Good man! Love the picture, I'm thinking I should have done that!

Works perfectly now even if the hw still comes on when the ch comes on but then turns off once hw is up to temp and ch stays on. Its weird, possibly cos of the piping but I will take another look in a few weeks to see if I can figure that out as its still puzzling me.

The one thing to note though, when installing the tado system it might be defaulted to just one zone in the app. Because I have a gravity fed system with supposedly "separate" hw/ch I had to email them to add the app functionality for it and install the relevant drivers on the signal box near the boiler. Maybe takes them a day to reply and sort for you if you send them the part ID.

I think this will be fine for me. I'll be pairing two wired thermostats, each of which is a single zone. So as long as both stats show in the app, it'll all be good.

EDIT: If your location is correct, you're just down the road from me I'm in L31.

 

[physichull]

Yup, moved to Burscough about 6 months ago from Lowton (near Leigh) and absolutely love living here, just love the location. I sometimes cycle over to Maghull / Aughton when I go through a health kick, its nice round there on the country lanes.

 

[~Divine~Wind~]

@squerble thanks for the detailed reply mate, much appreciate it

Thanks all as well, guess I'm digging into Hive S Plan

 

[Mysterae_]

I had to reverse engineer my heating's wiring too when I wanted to install a two zone Hive setup. Ignore all of the gubbins on the right hand side of the image, that's particular to my system so don't let that confuse you. It's all about getting terminal 13 live which enables the boiler to fire.

 

[jpaul]

Combi: Ideal Logic H15
Controller: Therma TQX0027
Stat x2: Therma TQX0073 (one for downstairs and one for bedrooms)
Water Tank: Evocyl 18L EVO HO STD 2Z (immersion OFF! lol)

The controller and stats are woeful compared to the Hive system we had, also have no idea when stuffs on or how the house is keeping temp!

was surprised to see Ideal themselves have a 2 zone modulating output controller, app control ....

2-Zone upgrade launched for Ideal Heating’s Halo range

Ideal Heating has extended its Halo controls offering with the launch of a new two-zone combi kit that provides installers with greater flexibility when install

www.installeronline.co.uk

Halo Combi Wi-Fi | Wireless Boiler Thermostat | Ideal Heating

Discover intelligent, easy and flexible app-controlled heating with Halo. Select Ideal’s smart wireless boiler thermostat to make your combi boiler more efficie

idealheating.com

 

[squerble]

I had to reverse engineer my heating's wiring too when I wanted to install a two zone Hive setup. Ignore all of the gubbins on the right hand side of the image, that's particular to my system so don't let that confuse you. It's all about getting terminal 13 live which enables the boiler to fire.

This is a nice diagram - what did you use to make it? Excel, or a more tailored app?