Home and Justice Secretaries 'deeply ashamed' of rape conviction rates.

If both parties are drunk then who's the one in the wrong? If neither can give consent? Genuine question..
okay so I come around to your place we get drunk together and have a good evening.

your slightly drunker than me and I bum rush you, you offer no resistance in your state.
You wake in the morning, realise your sore and to your horror realise someone has posted something in your letter box.
you phone the police.
but I'm like oh sorry officer I was also drunk.

is it still rape? would I be to blame?

your thinking of someone tipsy but still aware of their actions who still has the ability to give/deny consent?

you know it's becoming a thing where you video record the consent now days in some parts of the world
 
[..] I can't think of a single reason anyone would want to dissuade a genuine rape victim from getting justice and yet apparently you do. Most odd.

There's a huge and obvious reason - power. As long as people can gain power from doing something, some people will do it. There's a lot of power to be gained by promoting the false narrative that society is rape culture, etc. The people who do so don't give a rat's arse about victims other than as a tool they can use to gain more power.
 
Well I feel violated just reading that, thanks :cry:

On the face of it I immediately thought yes that is rape. But after thinking about it, if the other party is also drunk, how can they accurately construe if someone is giving consent, or trying to resist?

Surely that has to be taken into account?
 

Vincent, a harrowing tale indeed, and one that I kind of wish that I hadn’t read, but, and please accept that this is a genuine query, I’m not questioning the story at all.
You say that the girls in question lived in Sawbridgeworth, Hertfordshire, I know that Sawbridgeworth is not far from Bishops Stortford, which in turn is close to Stansted Airport.
So when you said that the Hampshire Police investigated this, was it a typo, or do an outside force have to investigate something as serious as this?
 
On the face of it I immediately thought yes that is rape. But after thinking about it, if the other party is also drunk, how can they accurately construe if someone is giving consent, or trying to resist?
I don't know but I've never been so drunk that I don't know what I'm doing and I've never had one night stands or slept with friends

you could also argue if someone is drunk and they beat you up, is it their fault? you can't really blame alcohol for someone's actions.

if someone is just laying there and not really responding to what's happening you must know it's not right?

I don't see the difference between plying someone with alcohol in a club so they will have relations with you or dropping some date rape drug in their drink either
both are for the exact same outcome
 
Depends, are both parties drunk? Who is the responsible one?

Jesus H. Christ, your question gave rise to icy fingers around my heart.
Subsequent to my divorce in my early thirties, I was fooling around like a man possessed.
I would go into bars, pubs, clubs in London, usually with one or more friends and gently, with the accent on gently, hit on any woman who attracted me.
I was never, ever, pushy, if a woman showed that she had zero interest in me, I’d apologise for taking up her time and walk away.
Naturally, every once in a while, I’d meet a kindred spirit, a woman who was happy that someone had shown interest in her, and if I was really lucky, was mildly attracted to me.
The laughing water would flow, and eventually we’d end up at her place or mine.
A few more drinks, maybe coffee, and things would progress, I’d maybe gently kiss her, she’d reciprocate, and the dance would begin, neither of us, certainly not me, would say, “Shall we? or should we?, or even “can we?”
It would just parlay from tongues down throats into urgently clutching at each other, easing clothes off, until we were doing the horizontal mambo.
In the cold light of dawn, one of us might call a cab and go home, but if the woman suddenly regretted it, what chance would I have had if she said, “I didn’t SAY yes, he just took it for granted?”
 
Doesn't change the fact that evidence is lacking.


Crap, we had evidence galore, even himself talking about his exploits, CPS dropped all charges still.

They make the victims uncomfortable and drag them through the mud no matter how much evidence they have.

Hope to god you never know anyone who has to use the justice system with regards to rape!



There is a lot of balls in this thread with lack of knowledge, I bet the vast majority of cases are long term or abusive relationships and not one night stands.
 
Crap, we had evidence galore, even himself talking about his exploits, CPS dropped all charges still.

Could you give some examples of the kind of things in the messages? Obviously things have to stand up to a certain level of scrutiny in a court so I'm just curious as to how these messages could be interpreted.
 
Could you give some examples of the kind of things in the messages? Obviously things have to stand up to a certain level of scrutiny in a court so I'm just curious as to how these messages could be interpreted.


He talks openly about how he raped her basically and she enjoyed it without going into extra detail
Plus in top of this she had a medical exam and evidence to show force was used.
Plus pictures shared to his friends etc.


It's a joke and as I have said I really couldn't honestly tell a woman to trust the authorities to do the right thing and get help.
 
so your suggesting if you get drunk it's your own fault someone takes advantage? maybe if the person didn't wear revealing clothing, maybe if that person wasn't so flirty and friendly.

they were asking for it?

oh you thought it was a netflix and chill with a bottle of wine? but she didn't realise that was slang for netflix and intercourse , it's her own fault? if only she didn't get drunk and almost passout


whats next swiping on tinder is consent

It's not always the guy alone making advances though...

What if the man is drunk and the women isn't?

Jesus H. Christ, your question gave rise to icy fingers around my heart.
Subsequent to my divorce in my early thirties, I was fooling around like a man possessed.
I would go into bars, pubs, clubs in London, usually with one or more friends and gently, with the accent on gently, hit on any woman who attracted me.
I was never, ever, pushy, if a woman showed that she had zero interest in me, I’d apologise for taking up her time and walk away.
Naturally, every once in a while, I’d meet a kindred spirit, a woman who was happy that someone had shown interest in her, and if I was really lucky, was mildly attracted to me.
The laughing water would flow, and eventually we’d end up at her place or mine.
A few more drinks, maybe coffee, and things would progress, I’d maybe gently kiss her, she’d reciprocate, and the dance would begin, neither of us, certainly not me, would say, “Shall we? or should we?, or even “can we?”
It would just parlay from tongues down throats into urgently clutching at each other, easing clothes off, until we were doing the horizontal mambo.
In the cold light of dawn, one of us might call a cab and go home, but if the woman suddenly regretted it, what chance would I have had if she said, “I didn’t SAY yes, he just took it for granted?”

I suspect that makes up a lot of the cases.
 
This is a difficult problem to tackle. The crime is often one which is between two people in private so independent evidence is very hard to obtain. It will sometimes be one persons word against another about what happened and whether consent was given. Every sane person would want an allegation investigated and given the best chance of being prosecuted. I have a daughter and if this happened to her I would be screaming from the roof tops to hang the offender. But I also have a son and it worries me that a knee-jerk reaction could result in a weakening of the standard of evidence needed for a conviction. We know that some rape allegations have been false and so we have to be very careful to protect possibly innocent people as well. So I fully support looking at this to see what can be done to increase conviction rates. But I can't support a weakening of the standard of evidence which could risk innocent people being sent to prison and their lives ruined. That doesn't help anyone. It simply adds a second victim to the crime.

Very succinctly put, I agree.

I don't know but I've never been so drunk that I don't know what I'm doing and I've never had one night stands or slept with friends

you could also argue if someone is drunk and they beat you up, is it their fault? you can't really blame alcohol for someone's actions.

if someone is just laying there and not really responding to what's happening you must know it's not right?

I don't see the difference between plying someone with alcohol in a club so they will have relations with you or dropping some date rape drug in their drink either
both are for the exact same outcome

There’s a world of difference between two people who are happily slightly inebriated, and another couple where the woman is comatose through a surfeit of alcohol.
As a normal red blooded heterosexual guy, I had a few one night stands when I was younger and “in the life”, but certainly not more than anyone else, and two things were paramount in any involvement with the opposite sex.
The fact that it was consensual was an absolute given, but equally important was that both parties enjoyed what they were doing, a roll in the hay just to keep me happy I wasn’t interested in.
With that in mind, I could certainly tell if someone was pushing me away, or pulling me toward her.
Whenever I was in a bar or pub, plying someone with booze so that they’d be easily talked into bed was emphatically not my style, I’d enjoy the drinks and keep the woman supplied too, IF that’s what she wanted.
If that led somewhere later, then great, hopefully we enjoyed each other equally, but no woman ever left my house afterward feeling that she’d had her arm twisted.
 
Crap, we had evidence galore, even himself talking about his exploits, CPS dropped all charges still.

They make the victims uncomfortable and drag them through the mud no matter how much evidence they have.

Hope to god you never know anyone who has to use the justice system with regards to rape!



There is a lot of balls in this thread with lack of knowledge, I bet the vast majority of cases are long term or abusive relationships and not one night stands.

This is typical behaviour. The CPS not that many years ago were preceding with court cases even when the evidence was clear there was no sexual assault (see Mark Pearson for how they ruined someone’s life when there was clear CCTV footage from day one)

Now they sound like they are swinging the other direction. Incompetence ruining people’s lives.
 
He talks openly about how he raped her basically and she enjoyed it without going into extra detail
Plus in top of this she had a medical exam and evidence to show force was used.
Plus pictures shared to his friends etc.
He said the word 'rape'? What about the word 'forced'?

What other evidence was there from this 'evidence galore' that shows it was rape and not consensual?
 
He said the word 'rape'? What about the word 'forced'?

What other evidence was there from this 'evidence galore' that shows it was rape and not consensual?


I've just said, medical evidence of force used in the region down below, would you like me to draw a diagram?

Also previous statements saying he raped her to the police as it was a domestic abuse situation ongoing over years.

I'm not going into great detail of the message but it was very much rape and forced .

What else would you like? What would it take for you to convict? A video?

Also a witness, although too young to testify I guess but social know so one assumes the police do as well.

You sound like someone who enjoys sticking up for the twisted individuals out there, maybe attempt a career in the CPS?
 
You sound like someone who enjoys sticking up for the twisted individuals out there, maybe attempt a career in the CPS?
You've made the claim that the justice system is wrong, and when I and others press for evidence, you've come back with vague statements such as "pictures shown" or "talking openly", these in themselves aren't necessarily evidence. Most of your statements could be summarised as "just trust me, I'm right", which isn't a very convincing argument.

If the police have the audio or texts of him actually saying he raped her, or forced himself on her and not just one guy talking to another guy about having sex, then that is poor, but if the terms used are vague then it will just be dismissed as conjecture or the act was consensual.

You need to drop the emotion and realise this needs to be handled objectively.

Also previous statements saying he raped her to the police
So he told the police he raped her, and they did nothing?
 
You've made the claim that the justice system is wrong, and when I and others press for evidence, you've come back with vague statements such as "pictures shown" or "talking openly", these in themselves aren't necessarily proof. Most of your statements could be summarised as "just trust me, I'm right", which isn't a very convincing argument.

If the police have the audio or texts of him actually saying he raped her, or forced himself on her and not just one guy talking to another guy about having sex, then that is poor, but if the terms used are vague then it will just be dismissed as conjecture or the act was consensual.

You need to drop the emotion and realise this needs to be handled objectively.




Medical advice and evidence of forced used?

Text messages that stated forced sex was used, I'm not going to publish word for word for your pleasure, the police were 100% they had him nailed and we're adamant he was getting serious jail time.

Pictures galore and previous statements made after a rape occurred during the abuse.

First hand witness to one assault.

So what needs to be handled more objectively pray tell?

Or is it all a misunderstanding, she had a drink and probably consented?

On the police issue, yes the first time so never bothered again, until she finally cracked again, police finally got onboard, had a good officer who was enthusiastic etc, CPS just threw it out after a few months.
 
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