Associate
Exactly, if you want decent multi-room A/V it adds up very quickly; 3-4 Sonos Amps, speakers the HDMI Matrix, decent speaker wire is £1500 total if you are looking for cheap Matrix and second hand kit
Home automation/future proofing extension
- Thread starter JRJ
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Exactly, if you want decent multi-room A/V it adds up very quickly; 3-4 Sonos Amps, speakers the HDMI Matrix, decent speaker wire is £1500 total if you are looking for cheap Matrix and second hand kit
Point is the rest of the stuff after that is not going to add up to much more than about £1k.
Obviously if you're including expensive light fittings feeding off the smart switches then that's going to add cost, but that really isn't automation cost, that's just normal renovation costs.
Obviously if you're including expensive light fittings feeding off the smart switches then that's going to add cost, but that really isn't automation cost, that's just normal renovation costs.
Associate
Obviously it all depends on the level of automation you want as well, I am aiming for a high level of control which most people will think is over the top so will of course be paying for that.
The thing is, the cost of RGBW lights vs standard spots is quite a bit more, same for light switches, electronic door locks, motors for blinds etc the list goes on and on so the additional costs of the "smart" stuff over and above standard stuff really adds up and when stuff is being built in it is not worth going down the cheap route and then having to rip things out to replace later when they go wrong.
It can of course be done a lot cheaper, using ZWave, Philips Hue etc, not integrating blinds and door locks and using systems which don't necessarily integrate with each other but can all be controlled via the same phone or tablet.
The thing is, the cost of RGBW lights vs standard spots is quite a bit more, same for light switches, electronic door locks, motors for blinds etc the list goes on and on so the additional costs of the "smart" stuff over and above standard stuff really adds up and when stuff is being built in it is not worth going down the cheap route and then having to rip things out to replace later when they go wrong.
It can of course be done a lot cheaper, using ZWave, Philips Hue etc, not integrating blinds and door locks and using systems which don't necessarily integrate with each other but can all be controlled via the same phone or tablet.
The cheaper route can also be controlled on a smartphone/ tablet. The end game for myself is practically the same as yours (just not RGBW bulbs as I don't really see the point). I'm having electric locks, blinds, lights, etc, all co trolled by a single app, and I'm still not reaching anywhere near the cost you are (although to be fair I'm not using motorized blinds on every window).
Out of interest what control system are you using? Is it a DIY one or one you'll have to get someone in to configure?
Personally the DIY systems are perfectly capable for most people's needs. I'd only go for one of the professional systems if I were doing it in a £2m house in London. Otherwise it's just not worth it IMO.
Out of interest what control system are you using? Is it a DIY one or one you'll have to get someone in to configure?
Personally the DIY systems are perfectly capable for most people's needs. I'd only go for one of the professional systems if I were doing it in a £2m house in London. Otherwise it's just not worth it IMO.
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Associate
Would be interested to see what your plans are.
I am currently looking at an assisted install but may be doing it myself to reduce the costs a bit, programming it shouldn't be too difficult as the logic is similar to most programming languages when using If/then/else.
Currently I have it specced as follows:
Loxone Controller (inc. Extensions for other inputs to control blinds etc): £1100
Lighting (LED Spots, DMX controllers, dimmers, PSUs for LEDs and LED strips: £1950
Access Control (iButtons & readers, electronic locks etc.): £300
Home Security (Alarm siren, door/window contacts, glass break sensor, exterior security lights, occupancy sensors): £850
Heating and safety (Smoke detectors, valve actuators, water leak detection etc): £950
AV (HDMI Matrix, speakers, music controller, Amp, server equipment, switches, Cat6 etc): £3000
Thats with out being too exhaustive.. I'm sure there are ways of bringing this down but am waiting to talk to a Loxone consultant to see their thoughts on it all.
I am currently looking at an assisted install but may be doing it myself to reduce the costs a bit, programming it shouldn't be too difficult as the logic is similar to most programming languages when using If/then/else.
Currently I have it specced as follows:
Loxone Controller (inc. Extensions for other inputs to control blinds etc): £1100
Lighting (LED Spots, DMX controllers, dimmers, PSUs for LEDs and LED strips: £1950
Access Control (iButtons & readers, electronic locks etc.): £300
Home Security (Alarm siren, door/window contacts, glass break sensor, exterior security lights, occupancy sensors): £850
Heating and safety (Smoke detectors, valve actuators, water leak detection etc): £950
AV (HDMI Matrix, speakers, music controller, Amp, server equipment, switches, Cat6 etc): £3000
Thats with out being too exhaustive.. I'm sure there are ways of bringing this down but am waiting to talk to a Loxone consultant to see their thoughts on it all.
So you're basically going for the platinum deal there then. 
I assume you don't have a bog standard semi worth £200-300k?
What I'm aiming for is something like the below. Some of it is already installed, other parts the house has been designed for but I will be installing at a later date, and some of it I haven't decided what I want yet.
Controller - Smartthings Hub (£100)
Lighting - spots and led strips I wouldn't include in the cost of automation, for example all my strips are being hard wired into the room lighting, so the overall cost of this part for automation is around 12 smart z wave dimmable switches - scenes being controlled by the Smartthings hub (set up using the app). I'd eventually like to have a controller built on the wall for downstairs as there will be multiple scene modes (cinema, party etc). Smart Switch costs are around 3x the cost of a bog standard switch. So uplift would be in the region of a few hundred quid (bearing in mind I'm in Canada so the exact cost is not directly comparable so not going to put an exact price on that as switches are different!). On the other hand as I mentioned earlier, that cost would increase significantly if you're including the entire cost of bulbs and light fittings, but I'd argue that's not really an automation cost as you'll need them regardless. A few electronically controlled blinds for downstairs
Access control - about the same . 1-2 electric locks for front and/or back door (I'm only going front and have keypad for garages).
Home security - I'm only real going to go for sensors/cameras in the garages, which is probably going to be a bit less than that, but for a full security system the price looks right. Whether most automatons want all that is debatable.
Heating and safety - again similar. Nest thermostat and protects along with moisture sensors in a few places and the mains cutoff (which is the biggest cost).
AV - where the big money is. We ended up going for separate sonos players rather than the amp and integrated speakers because the uplift was just too high, especially in places like bathrooms where you only really need a single play:1 at about 1/4 the price. All in all, as discussed prior.
All in all, after actually understanding what you want to achieve, an knowing you are going to be using a designed system £10k makes a bit more sense, especially if you're including lights in all that. You can do a similar system for a lot less however IMO and your average home automation project is going to cost significantly less
Just an aside, the main aim for my home automation is for the main room downstairs (see my renovation thread for some photos). I want to be able to turn the TV on in that area and have everything set automatically for TV watching (all lights but bar lights off, and bar lights (behind the seating area) dim to lowest setting , blinds draw and all systems automatically turn on - that will be acompished using a harmony remote and hub.) the rest of it is just an add on to that system. The locks, cameras, upstairs switches and water/fire stuff just integrate with the hub.
I assume you don't have a bog standard semi worth £200-300k?What I'm aiming for is something like the below. Some of it is already installed, other parts the house has been designed for but I will be installing at a later date, and some of it I haven't decided what I want yet.
Controller - Smartthings Hub (£100)
Lighting - spots and led strips I wouldn't include in the cost of automation, for example all my strips are being hard wired into the room lighting, so the overall cost of this part for automation is around 12 smart z wave dimmable switches - scenes being controlled by the Smartthings hub (set up using the app). I'd eventually like to have a controller built on the wall for downstairs as there will be multiple scene modes (cinema, party etc). Smart Switch costs are around 3x the cost of a bog standard switch. So uplift would be in the region of a few hundred quid (bearing in mind I'm in Canada so the exact cost is not directly comparable so not going to put an exact price on that as switches are different!). On the other hand as I mentioned earlier, that cost would increase significantly if you're including the entire cost of bulbs and light fittings, but I'd argue that's not really an automation cost as you'll need them regardless. A few electronically controlled blinds for downstairs
Access control - about the same . 1-2 electric locks for front and/or back door (I'm only going front and have keypad for garages).
Home security - I'm only real going to go for sensors/cameras in the garages, which is probably going to be a bit less than that, but for a full security system the price looks right. Whether most automatons want all that is debatable.
Heating and safety - again similar. Nest thermostat and protects along with moisture sensors in a few places and the mains cutoff (which is the biggest cost).
AV - where the big money is. We ended up going for separate sonos players rather than the amp and integrated speakers because the uplift was just too high, especially in places like bathrooms where you only really need a single play:1 at about 1/4 the price. All in all, as discussed prior.
All in all, after actually understanding what you want to achieve, an knowing you are going to be using a designed system £10k makes a bit more sense, especially if you're including lights in all that. You can do a similar system for a lot less however IMO and your average home automation project is going to cost significantly less
Just an aside, the main aim for my home automation is for the main room downstairs (see my renovation thread for some photos). I want to be able to turn the TV on in that area and have everything set automatically for TV watching (all lights but bar lights off, and bar lights (behind the seating area) dim to lowest setting , blinds draw and all systems automatically turn on - that will be acompished using a harmony remote and hub.) the rest of it is just an add on to that system. The locks, cameras, upstairs switches and water/fire stuff just integrate with the hub.
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Associate
Well If you take off the lighting and AV costs as "necessary" spending it doesn't seem to bad to be honest. I think getting the lighting right has a big impact so is worth spending the time and money on.
The controller cost is high but we can integrate everything in there and setup cool things such as pulse the living room lights if someone rings the door bell after a certain time instead of playing a sound so it doesn't wake people up. Can also setup the system to replay the last few days of actions for lights around the house so that it looks like there is someone in when you are on holiday. Because everything is integrated you can setup custom programming so that depending who comes home it will turn on the lights/TV, play music etc.
Security is fairly high up the list for us after being burgled last year so we are happy to spend a bit more there. For A/V though, most likely cheap'ish ceiling speakers which are IP rated in bathrooms, single speaker running both channels as you are hardly going get great acoustics..but nothing too cheap that it will need replacing once a year! I would be concerned about using the Sonos kit in there as I don't think it is IP rated at all is it?
it doesn't seem to bad to be honest. I think getting the lighting right has a big impact so is worth spending the time and money on.The controller cost is high but we can integrate everything in there and setup cool things such as pulse the living room lights if someone rings the door bell after a certain time instead of playing a sound so it doesn't wake people up. Can also setup the system to replay the last few days of actions for lights around the house so that it looks like there is someone in when you are on holiday. Because everything is integrated you can setup custom programming so that depending who comes home it will turn on the lights/TV, play music etc.
Security is fairly high up the list for us after being burgled last year so we are happy to spend a bit more there. For A/V though, most likely cheap'ish ceiling speakers which are IP rated in bathrooms, single speaker running both channels as you are hardly going get great acoustics..but nothing too cheap that it will need replacing once a year! I would be concerned about using the Sonos kit in there as I don't think it is IP rated at all is it?
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I wouldn't say AV is necessary but lighting is. Putting in automation shouldn't mean you need to upgrade the lighting design is basically what I mean. Your lights are going to be the same if you have manual switches or smart switches. If you're putting in more expensive RGBW lights specifically for automation then yes, that's additional cost, but Id argue good lighting is not an automation point,it's a design issue. I agree though, getting lighting right is important.
As far as I'm aware you can do pretty much all of that with Smartthings and a third party all of needed. It certainly has historical actions stored so you can see what the lights were doing in the past and when doors/windows were opened etc. The same with custom actions for individuals, either controlled by the key code used to enter the house, phone, or a chip connected to your phone.
Depends where you are planning on putting the speaker obviously but the Play:1 is actually designed for bathroom useage. It's the only play speaker designed to be resistant to humidity for this very reason. Obviously that means if you're planning on putting it IN the shower then it's not going to work, but above a vanity or somewhere outside the shower cubical/bath area then it's fine. Considering the Play:1 is less than half the price of the Amp, before the cost of the speaker you're looking at a £300+ saving for each bathroom, which, if there's an en suite is a £900 saving in total. The only issue in the UK is how to power the Play:1 in the bathroom while adhering to electrical regulations. In North America you are required to have at least one standard plug socket in the bathroom. I actually placed a second on the wall, near the ceiling for my Play:1 to be plugged into. I'm sure plenty of Brits have come up with solutions to this issue however.
Tbh, one of the other reasons I didn't get integrated speakers is that we may be moving out of our house next year, or in 4 years time depending on work. We can take dedicated Sonos speakers with us, not so much integrated speakers (although we could always remove the Amps...) basically it separates the speaker cost from the house renovation cost.
Edit: sorry if I sound like I'm nitpicking and/or taking this thread off on a tangent. Just thinking this discussion may be of some use for those interested in this sort of thing and looking at ways to save money/ reallocate budgets for various things. Every £ counts, especially when doing a major project on a standard budget!
As far as I'm aware you can do pretty much all of that with Smartthings and a third party all of needed. It certainly has historical actions stored so you can see what the lights were doing in the past and when doors/windows were opened etc. The same with custom actions for individuals, either controlled by the key code used to enter the house, phone, or a chip connected to your phone.
Depends where you are planning on putting the speaker obviously but the Play:1 is actually designed for bathroom useage. It's the only play speaker designed to be resistant to humidity for this very reason. Obviously that means if you're planning on putting it IN the shower then it's not going to work, but above a vanity or somewhere outside the shower cubical/bath area then it's fine. Considering the Play:1 is less than half the price of the Amp, before the cost of the speaker you're looking at a £300+ saving for each bathroom, which, if there's an en suite is a £900 saving in total. The only issue in the UK is how to power the Play:1 in the bathroom while adhering to electrical regulations. In North America you are required to have at least one standard plug socket in the bathroom. I actually placed a second on the wall, near the ceiling for my Play:1 to be plugged into. I'm sure plenty of Brits have come up with solutions to this issue however.
Tbh, one of the other reasons I didn't get integrated speakers is that we may be moving out of our house next year, or in 4 years time depending on work. We can take dedicated Sonos speakers with us, not so much integrated speakers (although we could always remove the Amps...) basically it separates the speaker cost from the house renovation cost.
Edit: sorry if I sound like I'm nitpicking and/or taking this thread off on a tangent. Just thinking this discussion may be of some use for those interested in this sort of thing and looking at ways to save money/ reallocate budgets for various things. Every £ counts, especially when doing a major project on a standard budget!
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Thanks for all the info certainly gives me plenty to read and research, still waiting on planning but I'm going to start building up a stock of bits ready to start to try and spread the cost out a bit, going to avoid hardware incase planning takes longer than expected so looking for recommendations on the best cat 6 shielded cable a 305m reel should be enough and a wall mounted server case?
Associate
I would go for decent cable like this GigaTrue stuff:
GigaTrue® CAT6 550MHz UTP LSZH Bulk Cable
Solid copper core cable, don't think I can list the seller on here but a google search should yield some results.
Edit - There are shielded version available. I would get at least 2 boxes so you can run 2 runs or more at a time.
GigaTrue® CAT6 550MHz UTP LSZH Bulk Cable
Solid copper core cable, don't think I can list the seller on here but a google search should yield some results.
Edit - There are shielded version available. I would get at least 2 boxes so you can run 2 runs or more at a time.
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Thanks I'll take a look, I'll probably go with shielded throughout as it will be near electrical cables on occasions, I've not finalised everything just yet but the plan is to have 4 connections (2 x 1gang or 1 x 2 gang) in the living room, study, master bedroom and then 2 connections in the other rooms near to where the TVs will be located as well as single run of coax alongside.
I'm looking at having atleast 2 cameras (1 front covering the front door, garages and drive, and 1 rear covering the garden and rear doors) what cable do I need to run for these?