House prices rose 7.3% this year, average now almost £250k

[HACO]

Blimey, are you in a really bad mood? Firstly I think only two of those I listed are the Government, and actually I was indeed surprised the landed gentry ranked behind the RSPB if I’m honest. Don’t you think it’s interesting? I was also surprised by how much land the Church owns. None of this means I have any interest in defending private land owners. I think our housing situation is as messed up as I suspect you do so maybe you could be a little less rude please?

Sorry, it's fundamentally dishonest to throw MOD!!!!!!!, National Trust, Forestry Commission or The Crown into the mix when we talk about housing policies. And you knew it before you posted it. These institutions are not hoarding commercially transferrable land that can be used for housing. I have no idea why you thought it's actually a contribution to the discussion about housing, and I'm sure next on that list are other non-commercial lands, e.g. roads, bridges, rivers, our seas too! We have a lot of those.

And you ignored the link I sent you, which says 50% of England land is owned by 2500 people. These are the people I'm talking about, not MOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!, Forests Commission or National Trust. Actual people or for-profit companies owning commercially available land. Not forests, roads, military camps, but commercial lands.

And finally, sorry for being a little too direct, maybe my tone was a little too harsh, I however do stand by what I said and if you generally agree with the concerns over the housing situation and don't want to defend private land owners, you shouldn't be equating them with the likes of National Trust or MOD.

 

[HACO]

Those 2500 "people" include corporations, trusts and the large landowners mentioned like the MOD etc.. it's about 30% of the 2500 according to your link that are apparently aristocracy and gentry i.e. dynastic wealth.

Dynastic property wealth is precisely what we need to go after with taxation and nationalisation. You seem to want to protect it, lol.

 

[HACO]

Don't get it, something like this is a great way to get a bit of equity, independence, reamin local and get a first step on the property ladder.

Horses and water

Sure, if somebody is local to that area and that property meets their needs for space and location, then it's great.

Yeah and I said that to him that there's flats available over 400 of them for between £50k to £130k in Cornwall all easily affordable for a single person earning even minimum wage who has been living at home for 10+ years that should have a sizeable deposit.

He doesn't even pay rent to a landlord yet still holds them responsible for his situation. Literally baffling. How can someone who's been living at home earning money not have a deposit?

Not sure if you're talking about me or not, I haven't lived at home since I was 16 and I've paid rent every single month since that age.

That's not good enough for haco or foxeye. The home must be in a specific area that they want and it must be given to them for free.

Haco has admitted the house he wants as a first time buyer is £600k.

He doesn't deem the other homes which are cheaper to be worthy of buying for him.

I haven't been given anything for free in my life and don't expect to either. I however find it unreasonable that young people have to pay £600k for a house that was £350k just 5 years ago and is now in even a worse condition than 5 years ago (no renovations, etc). Maybe you feel it's reasonable that those people deserved to profit £50k per year, tax-free, for just living there, lol.

 

[HACO]

Do you know why inheritance tax was introduced?

You want to re-invent the wheel.

Inheritance tax in its current form hits working and middle class people, and completely ignores dynastic wealth which is registered overseas in tax heavens. You're smart enough to know this, so don't pretend like you don't.

 

[HACO]

I'd like to see these houses making £50k a year.

They get talked about daily but yet to see a link to one.

Newham, Waltham Forest, Hillingdon and several other London boroughs have a 2015-2020 growth of over 70%, e.g. 350k property in 2015 is now 600k.

 

[HACO]

I'm also smart enough to know if you want to become resident in Gibraltar for instance you need to cut all ties to the UK to avoid it.

Tax advantages of gaining Gibraltar Residency
Gibraltar has some very generous tax advantages, for example there Gibraltar residents are not subject to:

Taxes on savings
Capital gains tax
Wealth taxes
VAT
There is also no inheritance tax either although that will not exempt British people from their inheritance tax responsibilities in the UK. This is due to British people being likely retain their UK domicile which means that worldwide assets will still be liable to UK IHT despite moving to the territory.

Again it's not as simple as you state it to be.

Inheritance tax raises only £5b per year. Net private wealth in the UK is £45 trillion. Our death rate is about 0.9% per year. If we even assumed that people who die have average wealth (it's much much more, older people are richer), it means inheritance tax is just at 1.1%.

Clearly, those with all the wealth don't pay UK inheritance tax when they die. They either transfer assets throughout theirs lives, or have complex tax-avoidance mechanism in place which they can afford. Your (and my) grandpa however, has to pay it up because they can't afford to spend £1 million to set up a mechanism that protects the other £99 million.

Again, you already know this. If you seriously want to defend people with £100mn+ net worth and say they're paying all their taxes, including inheritance tax at full rate, please be my guest.

 

[HACO]

That was an example for foxeye who claims everything local to him is a million billion pounds - ok, I lied, i think he said 150k+ - but actually my point was addressing a broader spectrum, if someone in a similar position, broadened their horizons and looked slightly further afield there will be 50+ similar properties, sure the area they are in isn't as desirable but beggars can't be choosers.

The phrase 'methinks he doth protest too much' seems rather pertinent here.

That's generally true in more remote areas, not really true in or around London, e.g. broadening spectrum usually increases prices, not decrease Unless you just go completely out, then there's the issue of 1hr+ commutes and £12-13k a year season tickets for two working people.

 

[HACO]

I don't honestly believe you are correct in what you are saying, I reckon you can have your cake and eat it in the majority of areas in and around the capital.

The key thing to remember is London has an amazing transport system so distance isn't a major factor like it could arguably be further afield. As it happens I spent most of my 20s on the tube, more specifically the jubilee line, so if we look at that as a rough example you go from silly money housing in canary wharf, green park etc.. but then a bit further out you have west ham and at the other end of the line Willesden etc..

So Mayfair, is £1-2m for a 2 bed flat, and 10 miles away in west ham it's £70-150k, and that's just me having a quick look, and that's a 20 minute commute to pretty much anywhere in zone 1 and definitely not at a cost of 12k a year for a season ticket. Also this is assuming you have to work in zone one in the first place, or indeed the capital itself. As a good example I also used to live in Surrey and the same is true there, million pound houses and cheap and cheerful houses all within throwing distance of each other.

I don't believe there isn't a house for everyone, it just involves some lifestyle changes and maybe digging deep for x years to achieve your first step onto the property ladder.

You're way, way off in your numbers.

Average property price in West Ham is £375k. Yes, not £2mn like Mayfair, but also not £70-150k.

In fact if you search for properties in West Ham under £200k, you see only 3 properties, one is a shared ownership, another is a lifetime lease for 60+ people, and the third is a minimum price for an auction. The first two are 1-bed flats, as well.

For a 2-bed flat in West Ham you're looking at the £275-350k range. If you want a nicer one, it's closer to £400k.

I'm guessing you haven't been living in London for a good while if you seriously thought a 2-bed flat in West Ham is £70k

 

[HACO]

Your issue is clear my old fruit, and it proves the point I was making very well, you are hell bent on a specific area, try the same 'West Ham' search but increase the range to 10m there's 103 results (excluding the parking) between £70k and £100k

I'm hell bent on a specific area? YOU said West Ham is £70k-150k, I looked at West Ham. If you had another area in mind, you shouldn't have said West Ham.

... So by West Ham you meant anywhere from Croydon to Romford to Enfield?

Who says Croydon or Fulham aren't part of West Ham?

Also even by his own criteria, there isn't a SINGLE flat within 10 miles of West Ham at £70k. Almost everything under £150k (his own pricing range) in that 10m distance is either shared ownership or starting auction price.

Completely clueless about property prices of London. I've seen his type, they say why don't you put together £20k to buy a £150k 2-bed flat in Finsbury Park? And by Finsbury Park they actually meant Luton.

 

[HACO]

Ok I hadn't had my coffee, and please watch your mouth

My point I was trying to make still stands, expand that search by 10 miles and there are hundreds of viable cost effective properties, I appreciate this ruins your hyperbole, soz.

You're moving the goalposts my friend.

Expand by 10 miles = half of London and your commute may go from either 1 minute (middle of the City) or over 2 hours (change lines 4 times). Your commute costs may go from 0 (walk) all the way to £5k a year in season ticket.

I think having to move the goal posts from West Ham to half of Greater London somewhat nullifies the point personally. To me it seems clear you were perhaps caught out by just how much values had inflated somewhere you thought was cheap.

Precisely. It's totally fine, somebody who last saw prices in 2005 might think 2-bed flats in West Ham go for £70k, but they also should see our point when the actual price in 2021 is £275-350k.

 

[HACO]

Leasehold.

You still pay land/ground rent to the freeholder.

You're still liable for x,y,z bills from the freeholder.

Leasehold is a complete waste of time, and shared ownership schemes are a really bad idea (as people have said again and again).

I totally misunderstood that property, I thought the total price is £70k and shared ownership £35k. £140k for that property is just LOOOLOOOOLLz

So much bickering in this post! Great entertainment

Wouldn't want to be too boring now would we

 

[HACO]

With shared ownership, you're still a renter.

It's all of the disadvantages of rental, with none of the advantages of ownership It's literally shooting yourself in the foot. You can't even sell up without permission, lol.

You're also responsible for 100% of the maintenance costs, even if you own 25% of it. They're also just simply overpriced by at least 10% compared to similar properties.

 

[HACO]

I'm not sure I'm seeing the hypocrisy in pointing out that shared ownership isn't necessarily a great idea or magic way to jump on the ladder, when it's being thrown into discussion alongside houseboats, caravans and a sprinkling of £100k cash only studio flats as an example that you can have your cake and eat it in London because of the tube.

I'm sure plenty of people out there would probably go as far as arguing it's just another route to exploit those at the bottom of the property food chain to ensure values can keep inflating and keep the equity growth bubble inflating.

It's genius really - what do you do when you've inflated housing so much you've realised people actually can't afford to buy it? Sell them half a house and rent them the other half! Some will even think they're being done a favour!

This country is generally very innovative when it comes to exploiting people at the bottom of the property ladder (and those at the middle parts of it as well, to a lesser degree).

You build an apartment building for, let's say, £150k per unit. You want to sell it for £250k per unit but can't as the market price is jus about £200k, that's too much of a margin. So you sell them 25% of them at £62.5k per unit, and charge rent on the rest. You make whole on 40% of your capital, and you borrow the rest at 1% interest-only, the rent payments (roughly equal to a 25-year repayment mortgage at 3%) give you a 5% return on that portion. You get a 4% guaranteed return, with collateral. That's without taking into account price appreciation of the assets over the long term.

 

[HACO]

Given covid, a massive recession, increasing unemployment figures, the Brexit car crash, you would think house prices are due a correction?

They're increasing at the fastest rate in the last decade. So no. In a sane world the prices would have crashed long ago, but the government will make sure that a correction never happens.

 

[HACO]

Friend of mine has just (against our advice) rented a flat on Upper Street opposite Islington Green.

Basic 1-bed, electric heating, £1.5k a month.

That is 50% more than our mortgage on our house, but he is willing to pay for the location.

We even offered him to stay with us for 6 months to a year paying a third of the above, to help him save for a deposit, but nope, he wants to live in the hubbub of London.

That's a crazy rent especially at this time. However, to buy that property it probably costs a £100k deposit and £2k a month mortgage. That's why a lot of people have just given up.

Also if your mortgage was less than £750 (edit: £1000) and you offered him to just "stay with you" for £500, you were hoping to take advantage of him as well. So don't pretend like you were offering to do him any favours.

 

[HACO]

I'm not "making excuses", just pointing out how far the goal posts are moving each time. We've gone from a 2 bed in West Ham to a handful of short leasehold and cash only purchase studio flats in Luton to get even close to the original 'point'. It's laughable frankly.

In his moving of goalposts, he's also forgetting that Luton to London & the tube season tickets is £5.5K a year, £11k for a working couple.

Your maths is wrong.

Yes, less than a £1000 mortgage and still doing the friend a "favour" by letting them crash there for £500 a month. LOOOL.

 

[HACO]

You are really angsty at the entire world rather than a specific issue I think. Just because people are participating in what is so adhorrent to you doesn't make them bad people.

Not sure what you're even talking about. For whatever reason it seems like you feel I've done you wrong. I don't know you.

A basic course in economics could be valuable for you?

Boomer economic: house prices have to go up at 5-10x inflation or else we're all dead. Keep your "economic" course for yourself.

And we already let him live here for a month completely free when he had to move out of his last place as he needed to fly back to South Africa.

Just for clarity, he earns our combined household salary solo (self-employed software developer), we help him save £1k a month, he helps us clear £500 a month of our debts quicker, everyone is a winner. We have a lovely, big 3 bedroom house, he would have had the largest room, and his own private bathroom as we have an en-suite.

I misunderstood, that's actually nice of you. Apologies.

 

[HACO]

Only if you insist on being difficult and keep refusing to let up on a mistake I apologised for multiple times....

'Laughable frankly'



I never actually suggested Luton matey, do keep up

So can you show us the magic location within 20 mins of Zone 1 where one can buy a 2-bed flat for 70-150k please? That's your own criteria wasn't it? Feel free to make that £150-200k.

You suggested West Ham, it wasn't it, you apologised (big of you), please tell us where this promise land is?

 

[HACO]

No need to go any higher than 150k, here are a few which are 20mins in terms of public transport, driving wise you could live a street away from zone 1 and it can take 30 minutes to get into it

https://www.onthemarket.com/for-sal...rement=false&shared-ownership=false&view=grid
https://www.onthemarket.com/for-sal...ed-ownership=false&under-offer=true&view=grid
https://www.onthemarket.com/for-sal...rement=false&shared-ownership=false&view=grid

That was about 3 minutes of searching, if I was actually actively looking for myself I expect I'd find plenty more via other sites.

All either starting auction prices, or cash-only due to not being mortgageable (lease ending soon, non-standard build, etc), or just 25% ownership of a 500k flat.

 

[HACO]

You are missing the biggest point. People can do whatever they want and you don't want them to do it. That is communism.

Yes. Market regulation is communism. This is getting comical.