How could linux become a big player?
- Thread starter Glaucus
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jdickerson said:
See my earlier post.
I don't understand why people want Linux to be like Windows? The whole point of a market is that you have different products, with different pros and cons, which gain favour in different segments of that market. Linux is already a huge player in the embedded and server markets?
The desktop market shows huge favourability to Windows. OSX is a good OS for this part of the market, but it's restricted to Apple hardware only, and this means it'll never sell as well. Catch-22 of that one is that if Apple opened it up to all hardware combinations, it'll stop being as good.
The server market is dominated by Linux and Solaris, because these OS's are great at running servers. Windows is there too, but not to the same extent. Linux's simplicity and modular put-togethery-ness also means it has a good hold in the embedded world, where small size is king.
It seems that trying to make Linux the ultimate killer desktop OS is a bit futile. It is UNIX-like, which was designed for mainframes and servers. Windows was designed primarily for desktops, which is why making a windows server work properly can be as painful as making a Linux desktop work properly. Microsoft have had more success in the server market than linux has had in the desktop market because they can leverage the huge contracts they have with large corporates and provide good support, which is all the corporates really care about.
Yes, someone might come along and design a really good distro for the desktop which anyone can use, but the Linux heart and soul will always be in the server market.
The desktop market shows huge favourability to Windows. OSX is a good OS for this part of the market, but it's restricted to Apple hardware only, and this means it'll never sell as well. Catch-22 of that one is that if Apple opened it up to all hardware combinations, it'll stop being as good.
The server market is dominated by Linux and Solaris, because these OS's are great at running servers. Windows is there too, but not to the same extent. Linux's simplicity and modular put-togethery-ness also means it has a good hold in the embedded world, where small size is king.
It seems that trying to make Linux the ultimate killer desktop OS is a bit futile. It is UNIX-like, which was designed for mainframes and servers. Windows was designed primarily for desktops, which is why making a windows server work properly can be as painful as making a Linux desktop work properly. Microsoft have had more success in the server market than linux has had in the desktop market because they can leverage the huge contracts they have with large corporates and provide good support, which is all the corporates really care about.
Yes, someone might come along and design a really good distro for the desktop which anyone can use, but the Linux heart and soul will always be in the server market.
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The Linkux distro makers themselves have been trying to push Linux on to the desktop. They're just doing a terrible job of it. There is no technical reason for Linux not to be a good desktop OS. It's the Linux mindset that is stopping this becoming as reality.
Ease of use is the biggest issue for me. Certain distros's look great have tonnes of features and loads of free app's that I cant install or drivers that I cant install for the life of me which then spoils the experience because nothing works. I want my computer to do what I need it to not do what my computer needs doing to it so I can get someting simple done.
Abolish command line? Make it more like windows?
if you want to run windows, run windows!
whats so hard about /home ?
why should the gui be similar? there are plenty of window managers that look like windows should you want.
I find your comparison with a web browser silly - an operating system has a hell of a lot more to do. and if you really want to you can make linux look exactly like windows.
I hate people trying to get rid of the command line, everyone wants a nice gui to overcomplicate things - i can't think of any cleaner, easier way to administer servers than the good old command line.
if you want to run windows, run windows!
acidhell2 said:
whats so hard about /home ?
why should the gui be similar? there are plenty of window managers that look like windows should you want.
I find your comparison with a web browser silly - an operating system has a hell of a lot more to do. and if you really want to you can make linux look exactly like windows.
I hate people trying to get rid of the command line, everyone wants a nice gui to overcomplicate things - i can't think of any cleaner, easier way to administer servers than the good old command line.
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Exactly. Many people like Linux for the exact same reasons that others finger to illustrate their hatred for the system. I love the command-line. It's my favorite way of working. My boss hates it. She prefers to use GUI tools to perform operations. She'll keep using her Mac and I'll keep using Linux.Hate said:who cares?
To each his (or her) own.To each his (or her) own.
/backs out of holywar thread.
You don't need to ditch terminal/command line- you still can have it, but allow the installation of downloaded drivers & software to be installed by a double click for Linux noobs. There is no reason for Linux having command line now for driver/software installation. Even a simple "batch file" file that's supplied with drivers/software to do it for you, ie .RUN Have a unified driver/software installation package (a general "Linux" download which includes all distros)
Linux is easy to use, but it's the initial hardware/software setup that's "geeky" I don't want to go back to command line, I waved goodbye to DOS, multiple configs, manual typing which takes longer.
Linux is easy to use, but it's the initial hardware/software setup that's "geeky" I don't want to go back to command line, I waved goodbye to DOS, multiple configs, manual typing which takes longer.
thing is, the command line is part of linux. Me, like quite a few people enjoy its clean and uncluttered way of using a system.
OSX is quite clever in the way the whole BSD subsystem is abstracted away from the user so that if you don't want to know about it - you don't have to.
OSX is quite clever in the way the whole BSD subsystem is abstracted away from the user so that if you don't want to know about it - you don't have to.
Problem is, everyone wants Windows but for free 
Linux is what it is; a great server platform and a pretty good desktop. If you want an excellent desktop with superb support use Windows or maybe OS X if you want something a bit different.
Linux is what it is; a great server platform and a pretty good desktop. If you want an excellent desktop with superb support use Windows or maybe OS X if you want something a bit different.
Al Vallario said:
A very good post and I'd like to expand on this point slightly. A lot of people say "why can't linux run this game" and then blame Linux and I do think this is a bit unfair. It's hardly the fault of the Linux developers that game developers used closed libraries such as DirectX/Direct3d, hardly their fault that MS don't want to open up the Direct3d API for implementation under Linux (most of the work done by Cedega/WINE is reverse engineering iirc). So the problem isn't Linux, there are many OpenGL popular games which run under Linux. Generally it's not too much work to port an existing OpenGL game from Windows to Linux - admittedly it's not as simple as a straight recompile but the reason most companies don't port is either: Lack of Linux experience among the development team (generally Linux dedi server applications are outsourced) and/or lack of a market (need to put pressure on these developers).
Linux does provide the means to play games and many recent games run pretty well on Linux - it's the games developers who need to change their act and follow the likes of ID Software and consider Linux versions of their games. This is one major step into getting a bigger share of the home market and progress here is being made.
Wow it feels like I stumbled upon a timewarp. Linux makes a crap desktop OS??? Some people need to open their eyes.
Lets look at what seperates the Linux Desktop from the Windows Vista Desktop.
It has been announced that Windows Vista will require dedicated (as opposed to shared) video RAM in order to use any of the Vista eyecandy (Aero).
In order to playback HD video in Windows Vista you have to purchase hardware DRM enabled monitors, of which there are only something like half a dozen even available and they cost a fortune. Failure to own such a monitor will result in all proprietry HD products being downsampled to significantly lower quality.
Windows Explorer (the desktop) is almost completely uncustomisable. Sure you can change the themes and move the "panels" around but thats about it. To do anything really interesting you have to install 3rd party applications (such as Windowblinds and other derivitives) which are almost entirely proprietry, damn unstable and again not customisable enough; or you have to start hacking the windows api dll's and reprogramming them to do what you want them to (which is a hell of a lot more complex than customising absolutely every element of the linux xorg environment).
Now if we look at linux, specifically aiglx.
AIGLX and Compiz/Beryl is alpha state software yet it already completely blows Vista's compositing engine out of the water. Compiz/Beryl is opensource and allows third party engines to be written and used. Windows compositing engine is totally closed and very limited as a result. The eyecandy you get from AIGLX with Compiz/Beryl goes way beyond anything Vista's Aero will be giving and thats just at these early development stages, as times goes on AIGLX and Compiz/Beryl will develop beyond the very dreams of Redmond's UI team.
As for all this CLI rubbish (because thats what it is) there are several Linux distros out there that provide graphical package managers, which also handle dependencies and install via point and click. I have -never- had to do any cli input for any of the packages in the official repositories for Ubuntu and I run a lot of packages on my machines. The CLI is generally used by people who want to compile the latest source trees for beta and non-release code, or for tweaking areas of their system. Editing configs etc can all be done in the GUI via text editors (of which there are many to choose from).
Games? Well I am subscribed to Cedega and frequantly play games like Need for Speed Most Wanted, Anarchy Online, Heroes of Might and Magic 5, Never Winter Nights to name just a few. Popular games like Unreal Tournament, Quake, World of Warcraft and literally hundreds of other windows games will also run in Cedega.
Other Applications? Well if there is something that you absolutely must run in windows (such as Internet Explorer to access your companies .net ie encumbered intranet) then use windows...in VMWARE SERVER (which is 100% free and will run pretty much any windows application that doesn't depend on directx). The added bonus of running windows as a guest OS is it is sandboxed, so none of those nasty viruses, trojans, spyware, malware and rootkits can do any significant damage. However, I should also point out that I am yet to find a single windows application that wasn't a game, which did not have vast list of linux competitors (most of which do a far better job as well).
I don't have a single windows installation on any computers in my entire house with the exception of winxp pro as a guest OS in VMWare Server, which is used only for cross platform testing. I have worked in the IT industry for 15 years in many different areas ranging from education, testing, business development right up to consulting on international enterprise systems for some of the biggest companies in the world, so I have had to use a vast array of software during my career and I don't even rank windows as a viable alternative.
Just my 2p worth.
Paladine
Lets look at what seperates the Linux Desktop from the Windows Vista Desktop.
It has been announced that Windows Vista will require dedicated (as opposed to shared) video RAM in order to use any of the Vista eyecandy (Aero).
In order to playback HD video in Windows Vista you have to purchase hardware DRM enabled monitors, of which there are only something like half a dozen even available and they cost a fortune. Failure to own such a monitor will result in all proprietry HD products being downsampled to significantly lower quality.
Windows Explorer (the desktop) is almost completely uncustomisable. Sure you can change the themes and move the "panels" around but thats about it. To do anything really interesting you have to install 3rd party applications (such as Windowblinds and other derivitives) which are almost entirely proprietry, damn unstable and again not customisable enough; or you have to start hacking the windows api dll's and reprogramming them to do what you want them to (which is a hell of a lot more complex than customising absolutely every element of the linux xorg environment).
Now if we look at linux, specifically aiglx.
AIGLX and Compiz/Beryl is alpha state software yet it already completely blows Vista's compositing engine out of the water. Compiz/Beryl is opensource and allows third party engines to be written and used. Windows compositing engine is totally closed and very limited as a result. The eyecandy you get from AIGLX with Compiz/Beryl goes way beyond anything Vista's Aero will be giving and thats just at these early development stages, as times goes on AIGLX and Compiz/Beryl will develop beyond the very dreams of Redmond's UI team.
As for all this CLI rubbish (because thats what it is) there are several Linux distros out there that provide graphical package managers, which also handle dependencies and install via point and click. I have -never- had to do any cli input for any of the packages in the official repositories for Ubuntu and I run a lot of packages on my machines. The CLI is generally used by people who want to compile the latest source trees for beta and non-release code, or for tweaking areas of their system. Editing configs etc can all be done in the GUI via text editors (of which there are many to choose from).
Games? Well I am subscribed to Cedega and frequantly play games like Need for Speed Most Wanted, Anarchy Online, Heroes of Might and Magic 5, Never Winter Nights to name just a few. Popular games like Unreal Tournament, Quake, World of Warcraft and literally hundreds of other windows games will also run in Cedega.
Other Applications? Well if there is something that you absolutely must run in windows (such as Internet Explorer to access your companies .net ie encumbered intranet) then use windows...in VMWARE SERVER (which is 100% free and will run pretty much any windows application that doesn't depend on directx). The added bonus of running windows as a guest OS is it is sandboxed, so none of those nasty viruses, trojans, spyware, malware and rootkits can do any significant damage. However, I should also point out that I am yet to find a single windows application that wasn't a game, which did not have vast list of linux competitors (most of which do a far better job as well).
I don't have a single windows installation on any computers in my entire house with the exception of winxp pro as a guest OS in VMWare Server, which is used only for cross platform testing. I have worked in the IT industry for 15 years in many different areas ranging from education, testing, business development right up to consulting on international enterprise systems for some of the biggest companies in the world, so I have had to use a vast array of software during my career and I don't even rank windows as a viable alternative.
Just my 2p worth.
Paladine
Paladine said:
Just to point out that this isn't a feature Microsoft specifically put in Vista to annoy people, it's a universal standard so Linux will either need to follow it or hack it for you to be able to play back the higher quality versions.