How different are these 2 sets of speakers?

steinooo

steinooo

steinooo

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Hi all,

I wonder if anyone has any experience on how different the sound is between a pair of bookshelf speakers like Wharfedale Diamond 9.1 or 10.1 Versus a pair as part of a "Home Cinema System" speakers like these:

21c11TBf0jL._SL500_AA300_.jpg


I am wondering if the difference between the two sets are "night and day". I am going to be going from 2 Logitech PC speakers and a sub connected by 3.5mm jack to my TV.

Background:

I am on the lookout for improving the sound in my lounge (TiVo, Media centre, Xbox & PS3)

I haven't got much more than £200 or space for a full size AVR in my cabinet so that's why I'm comparing these.

thanks in advance if you have any thoughts for me :)
 
Sound quality-wise the Logitecs will be on a par with the home cinema kit.

A stereo amp and some half decent stereo speakers will be significantly more realistic, and dynamic, and capable of producing music properly which is something the average home cinema kit really struggles to do.

What'll be missing with the Diamonds is bass thump. HC kit and PC kit subs are rarely subtle, but they do bang about a bit and generally act like a bit of a hooligan to make you think you have deep bass.

Budget-wise £200 is a lot for PC speakers, but then again all the processing and source decoding is done by the PC so all they have to do is amplify. £200 is kind of step-up money for a home cinema kit. You get a few more bells and whistles than the bog standard entry-level model, but what's missing is a broad range of inputs and some quality. £200 for a slim AV amp and some speakers isn't do-able. The alternative is a 2ch stereo Hi-Fi amp and some speakers. But even then the budget is ridiculously tight even for entry-level models.

I think if I was in your shoes I'd stick with the PC speakers for now. IMO the home cinema kit is at best a sideways move.

I've just thought, an Onkyo HTX22HDX would be the perfect solution for you. It's a full spec AV amp with HDMI, optical, coax and stereo inputs. The amp is built in to the sub, so it's not going to take up space in the cabinet. It comes with stereo speakers, but you can add a centre and rears as you can afford. At just £229 it's also pretty close to your budget.
 
Thanks Lucid again for a great helpful post.

I have thought about a stereo amp but from what I've read and a brief chat with a lady in Richer Sounds today they don't accept HDMI from mulitple sources, which is a problem for me as I have 4.

I looked at that Onkyo today and it looked good but it looked as if the IR receiver was on the sub, and it wouldn't really fit with my cabinet to have it on show. It would have to be stood on the floor next to my cabinet and wouldn't look right. With the speakers that come with this as well - I wasn't sure how good they would be - they look so small! I didn't have time for a demo.

I see what you mean about £200 for slim AVR and speakers isn't do-able. One thing I thought about was buying a ~£200 slim AVR like a Pioneer I've seen, and connecting some old Sony bookshelfs I have for now - then keep scouring eBay for some 2nd hand Diamonds or Mordaunt Shorts etc in future until I see a bargain. I am very happy to buy 2nd hand btw..

While I've got you mate - with these Sony bookshelfs I've got (SS-CCP500, IIRC 60W, 6 Ohm) - I was thinking of testing them out by soldering RCA plugs on them (it's just speaker wire) and plugging them directly into my Toshiba TV (32c3030db), is there any way I can tell if they will be able to cope with this?
 
Crafty said:
Erm unless I'm missing something..

http://www.richersounds.com/product/av-receivers/onkyo/txnr515/onky-txnr515-blk

8 HDMI in.
Click to expand...
No no, I don't think you're missing anything..... Well not unless you count that the TX-NR515 isn't a Hi-Fi amp (it's actually an AV amp in case you weren't aware) and we were discussing Hi-Fi amps in the bit you quoted

... Oh, and there's the fact that steinooo said he can't fit a normal sized AV amp in his cupboard (and the TX-NR515 is about as "normal AV amp sized" as they come)

...... and, oh yeah, cost. It's almost double his entire budget.... But other than those minor details, yeah, you missed nothing :D

Do keep playing :)
 
but if you need HDMI switching you need an AV amp rather than a hifi amp ?

The one I linked to was just the first thing I found that had HDMI switching, you can get the base model stuff for £150 or maybe a bit less.
 
steinooo said:
While I've got you mate - with these Sony bookshelfs I've got (SS-CCP500, IIRC 60W, 6 Ohm) - I was thinking of testing them out by soldering RCA plugs on them (it's just speaker wire) and plugging them directly into my Toshiba TV (32c3030db), is there any way I can tell if they will be able to cope with this?
Click to expand...

Unless the TV is very odd and has phono sockets for speaker terminals then that's not going to work. There just isn't enough voltage coming from an audio out socket to drive a speaker. In scale it would be like you trying to bumpstart a HGV. Then there's the issue of volume control. Line out sockets rarely have variable level. The signal level is fixed because it's designed to go in to an amp that has it's own volume control.

The IR receiver being on the sub is one of the compromises for having the electronics and sub in one box. That's just the way it is. It can be overcome with IR relay repeaters, but not for £200'ish all in. I agree that going down the slim AV receiver route and looking for s/h speakers is probably your best bet.
 
lucid said:
Unless the TV is very odd and has phono sockets for speaker terminals
Click to expand...

It actually has. Can you see the red and white beneath the Woofer output on this pic:

d570c5%7Cedad_5333-connections.jpg


I did think about the fact that there wouldn't be enough voltage to power the speakers, but I don't know how I can find out for sure if it will have enough power.

For clarity : This is totally separate rig to what the initial discussion is about, and I realise that even if I could attach the bookshelfs directly that they would only be amplified by my TV's internal amp.
 
You could use regular stereo phono connections to a hifi amp from each individual source. It's a bit more of a pain, and I do this, but I only really reap great sound quality benefits from my CD player. The rest is hardly bad, skyHD and my blu ray sound far far better than the built in tv speakers. Bass is still excellent with movies and beats my AE Aegos hands down.

In summary: for music get a stereo hifi amp and bookshelf speakers, for games and movies an AV amp with sub/sat speakers might suit better.
 
Line level outputs will not power speakers beyond a whisper. Think headphones and them you've got about the right idea.

I would be very surprised of any tv has speaker outputs using RCA jacks which are amplified. This would surely fry any equipment if connected incorrectly.
 
steinooo said:
It actually has [phono sockets as speaker sockets]. Can you see the red and white beneath the Woofer output on this pic:
Click to expand...

Actually, no it doesn't. It's what I said in post #7, and tom_nieto has just echoed it. What you have is just a set of line out sockets for connection to an external amplifier. These are not speaker sockets.

steinooo said:
I did think about the fact that there wouldn't be enough voltage to power the speakers, but I don't know how I can find out for sure if it will have enough power.
Click to expand...
Once again I refer back to my post, #7 in the thread.

It's common knowledge within AV and Hi-Fi enthusiast circles that a line out socket won't drive a speaker. Wikipedia has info if you want further reading LINK before trying it for yourself and coming to the conclusion that a line level socket doesn't have the voltage to drive a speaker :D In other words, take our word for it. I've been in professional AV for more than a quarter of a century. I don't know everything, but on this question you can take my word for it that the answer is correct. You need an amp between the TV and your speakers if you want any sort of useful volume more than the tinny scratchy sound of sitting next to someone wearing headphones.
 
no I totally understand and agree lucid, I wasn't questioning your knowledge. I was just suprised to see two phono sockets at all on the back of my TV, I certainly wlil not be trying to connect my speakers to it.

A separate question then - this is probably completely crazy and will get me laughed off the forum.,......but the Sony mini hi-fi that the speakers are currently connected to has two "aux" ports for speaker wire. I don't suppose by any chance this is an input which I could take from the 2 phono ports on the output of the TV, and get some kind of "2 x phono plugs to speaker wire" lead and use the stereo as an amp? I'm clutching at straws here :P please don't laugh!
 
Have you got the model number of the Sony hifi you have? I spotted the model number of the speakers but not the hifi :)

Might just make it a bit easier with what you have to work with :)
 
You could easily pick up a 2nd hand avr for £100, something like a onkyo 606/7 and a pair of the speakers you suggested above for around your £200 mark.


If you hifi has 3.5mm aux input you could go red/white phono out of tv to 3.5mm jack into hifi.
 
steinooo said:
no I totally understand and agree lucid, I wasn't questioning your knowledge. I was just suprised to see two phono sockets at all on the back of my TV, I certainly wlil not be trying to connect my speakers to it.

A separate question then - this is probably completely crazy and will get me laughed off the forum.,......but the Sony mini hi-fi that the speakers are currently connected to has two "aux" ports for speaker wire. I don't suppose by any chance this is an input which I could take from the 2 phono ports on the output of the TV, and get some kind of "2 x phono plugs to speaker wire" lead and use the stereo as an amp? I'm clutching at straws here :P please don't laugh!
Click to expand...

no idea what you are talking about!!

what are these 'aux' ports? what type of connector are they? what does it say next to them? why do you think they are for speakers? - does it say 'speaker' on it?
what connectors do the speakers you have use? phono for speakers is unusual so should be bare wire or an 8mm banana plug.
don't plug in speakers to ANY phono socket or anything unless it specifically says 'speakers'.

need more detail.
 
steinooo said:
A separate question then - this is probably completely crazy and will get me laughed off the forum.,......but the Sony mini hi-fi that the speakers are currently connected to has two "aux" ports for speaker wire.
Click to expand...

No offense, but..... Thud, thud, squelchy-thud, squelch, squelch [sound of head beating to a pulp against the brick wall of ignorance] :D

A picture paints a thousand words.

These are typical sockets for speaker connections:

This one is bare wire spring clips...
05160-0.jpg


...and this is bare wire screw down terminals with 4mm banana plug holes, so they're multi-format.
Binding_Post_Speaker_Amplifier_terminal_4mm_to.jpg




This is a pair of phono/cinch/RCA connectors.
ramka_752.jpg


These are used to connect equipment together such as a CD player to an amp or a TV line out socket to and amplifier Aux input socket.... can ya see where I'm going with this yet? ;)

Anything correctly marked as AUX is designed NOT for connecting speaker to. It IS designed for connecting other bits of equipment to. AUX normally infers a line input connection.
 
lucid said:
Anything correctly marked as AUX is designed NOT for connecting speaker to. It IS designed for connecting other bits of equipment to. AUX normally infers a line input connection.
Click to expand...

yes indeed I was wondering if it was possible to use the Amp built into my mini hifi to take the output from my TV's phono sockets to the Aux on the Mini hifi.

do you think that would work?

i.e. TV out :
ramka_752.jpg


cable

Mini hifi aux in :
05160-0.jpg


the hifi has speakers connected to it using two other speaker wire connections you see
 
That doesnt look like an Aux in to me. That looks like another set of speaker terminals.

Whats the HIFI model and we can look into the specs of it to give a better suggestion.
 
No no no no no! Is this a windup?

RCA goes to RCA. If your hifi has an aux input then you can connect your tv's red and white output to the re and white input and use the hifi as you describe. If not then you need to invest in something else.
 
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