How many watts?
- Thread starter mondo
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Technically 80W RMS. But being from a high quality amplifier, that power is delivered with 0.03% THD (rather than pc speakers or mini hi-fi's usual 10%, which is pretty unlistenable).
Also speaker sensitivity plays a big role. My speakers are 90db sensitivity which is pretty high (they produce 90db with 1 watt input power at a distance of 1 metre).
Another issue is whether the power supply is up to delivering the required power, in many instances it is not. In all, watts mean very little on a majority of equiptment. You can tell more about equiptments volume output by actually looking at it. Big speakers are likely to be more sensitive, a large transformer suggests a suitable power supply that won't collapse to a small percentage of the required power when under load, large heatsinks are often seen in class AB amps of significant output.
Also speaker sensitivity plays a big role. My speakers are 90db sensitivity which is pretty high (they produce 90db with 1 watt input power at a distance of 1 metre).
Another issue is whether the power supply is up to delivering the required power, in many instances it is not. In all, watts mean very little on a majority of equiptment. You can tell more about equiptments volume output by actually looking at it. Big speakers are likely to be more sensitive, a large transformer suggests a suitable power supply that won't collapse to a small percentage of the required power when under load, large heatsinks are often seen in class AB amps of significant output.
50 Watts per channel, whoo whoo. Wattage means nothing, the 1m tall, decent efficiency, Mission floorstanders either side of me and the decent amp sitting on my desk mean that I've no problems creating massive volumes. Saying that, I could probably do with bi-amping them for the best bass control. 8" bass drivers and 6.5" midranges take some driving to achieve their full potential. Once I qualify, a pair of cyrus mono X's are probably in order.
the best speakers i have ever heard were a pair of quad electrostatics (look like radiators) being run by a 15 watt valve amp, and they could be run to deafening levels without the sound really distorting, but you can run a pair of large floorstanding conventional box loudspeakers, with a standard (high wattage) amplifier say 200 watts and the volume will get to say 30% or about 10 o,clock on the volume control and the sound will fall apart, and be distorting like silly ! (and not even be nearly as loud as the valve, electrostat setup)
basically watts are a little bit like valves on a car, meaningless, unless, the rated output is properly measured, (and the watts will then tell you how well the amp will drive the bass & mid driver, and tweeter ie. how quickly it will start and stop the drive units, and how easily it will control them) it has Nothing to do with volume, you want a measurment for volume go for speaker sensitivity, amp current delivery, speaker cabinet design!
there endeth the lesson...
basically watts are a little bit like valves on a car, meaningless, unless, the rated output is properly measured, (and the watts will then tell you how well the amp will drive the bass & mid driver, and tweeter ie. how quickly it will start and stop the drive units, and how easily it will control them) it has Nothing to do with volume, you want a measurment for volume go for speaker sensitivity, amp current delivery, speaker cabinet design!
there endeth the lesson...
I'm glad it's been mentioned how Watts aren't everything. Unfortunately due to marketing, big numbers are generally seen as better - MHz, RAM (cheapo 512MB graphics cards anyone?), engine volume (america can be pretty notorious for this), megapixels on cameras... the list goes on. A common trick used by sound system manufacturers is to quote peak output, making the system seem like it's more powerful than it is. If you absolutely must compare wattages, look for the RMS value.
With that said, here's what I've got:-
150W RMS per channel on Wharfedale Diamond 8.4 floor standers
100W RMS per channel on Wharfedale Diamond 8.2 bookshelfs
120W on Wharfedale Diamond 8C centre speaker.
All 6 ohm, but not ultra sensitive at 86dB so benefit from a decent amp. I have an amp that outputs 60W per channel into 8 ohms @ 0.02% THD that has no problems driving the 8.4s to uncomfortable levels.
Then I have a 650W RMS, 4 ohm, 93dB sensitivity subwoofer, with 12" area and 31.6mm range of movement. Even with 300W amplification it really kicks it out.
I remember seeing a full AIWA "hifi" in a local electronics store boasting 1000W RMS (not kidding!) per channel for around £300-400. I shudder to think how bad that would sound. The THD must be through the roof and the speakers were mostly plastic.
With that said, here's what I've got:-
150W RMS per channel on Wharfedale Diamond 8.4 floor standers
100W RMS per channel on Wharfedale Diamond 8.2 bookshelfs
120W on Wharfedale Diamond 8C centre speaker.
All 6 ohm, but not ultra sensitive at 86dB so benefit from a decent amp. I have an amp that outputs 60W per channel into 8 ohms @ 0.02% THD that has no problems driving the 8.4s to uncomfortable levels.
Then I have a 650W RMS, 4 ohm, 93dB sensitivity subwoofer, with 12" area and 31.6mm range of movement. Even with 300W amplification it really kicks it out.
I remember seeing a full AIWA "hifi" in a local electronics store boasting 1000W RMS (not kidding!) per channel for around £300-400. I shudder to think how bad that would sound. The THD must be through the roof and the speakers were mostly plastic.
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nothing. my speakers dont produce power. they are powered though, by a 6x80w av amp, a 2x100w denon and a 2x100w jvc. all rms.
Peak is double RMS since watts are voltage times current, and both of thier peak levels are divided by the square root of two to give RMS. Together it just ends up as x2 
. I'm also willing to be they can't produce 700W RMS, a true 700W amplification system and it's power supply simply won't fit in that space (unless it is class-D and uses a switch mode supply, which I seriously doubt at its price point).
. I'm also willing to be they can't produce 700W RMS, a true 700W amplification system and it's power supply simply won't fit in that space (unless it is class-D and uses a switch mode supply, which I seriously doubt at its price point).
I find that with my Quad electrostats (ESL 57s), I barely need any volume.
The sound is so clear and transparent and seperation is so good, this it's more a case of finding the right volume for the audio than turning it up until you can hear it properly.
Now if big record companies would just quit the volume wars, maybe I wouldn't hear brick-wall limiters pumping on anything mastered after 1990
The sound is so clear and transparent and seperation is so good, this it's more a case of finding the right volume for the audio than turning it up until you can hear it properly.
Now if big record companies would just quit the volume wars, maybe I wouldn't hear brick-wall limiters pumping on anything mastered after 1990
Codmate said:Now if big record companies would just quit the volume wars, maybe I wouldn't hear brick-wall limiters pumping on anything mastered after 1990
I fully agree with that sentiment
I didn't know ESL's were especially sensitive? In fact I thought they were less sensitive than most dynamic drivers. They are much more powerful on axis though arn't they? I'd love to hear some, I know they are supposed to be amazing, though I don't especially like thier appearance.
SPL is better but still isn't very trustworthy since it's measured at a single frequency (1khz normally). Some types of buzzer can produce over a 110 decibel at a single frequency, but will barely be audable across most the range. Obviously Hi-Fi doesn't vary this much, but it's quite possible to have a loud system with weak bass or similar.
Codmate said:
Wow, I bet those sound amazing
I'm building my next set of speakers, as I did with my sub. It's possible to get such incredible sound quality at a fraction of retail price. I'm thinking of going for three separate enclosures per speaker, with ribbon tweeters in the top section. It will be a while before I get rid of my Wharfedales, but I will definitely do it. It's something I've been thinking about for years.
Dr.EM said:I fully agree with that sentiment
I didn't know ESL's were especially sensitive? In fact I thought they were less sensitive than most dynamic drivers. They are much more powerful on axis though arn't they? I'd love to hear some, I know they are supposed to be amazing, though I don't especially like thier appearance.
Yes - the impedance is 30-15 ohm in range, so they will fight your amp! I blew a channel on my 3020i when I tried to drive them with it at a high-ish volume. That could be 'cos the transformer on one of the Quads is a bit worse for wear.
Despite this, they sound very very fast (the membrane barely moves compared to a cone driver) however, and the way they produce sound produces a very different effect than regular cone drivers.
Do hear a pair some day! One warning - if you like them, nothing with a cone in it will ever do again :-\
It seems to be about a 50/50 split. Half the people I play mine too like them, but prefer the sound that cone drivers make. The other unfortunate half start scouring auction sites for electrostats. There's a pair of 57s there for £150.00 right now (although they will go for more like £400 - £1000).
If you want a *really* nice pair of 57s for £800 - go here:
http://www.flashbacksales.co.uk/Classique.htm
I'm going to send mine to these guys one day soon, as one of them has a bass panel that needs patching up!
The appearance of them is funny - most people think they are radiators. The modern versions (which go for £4000 upwards new) look more like the monolith from 2001 than anything else - lol.
Since the speakers 'disappear' when you're listening to them it doesn't matter IMO anyway. I secretly like their 50's stylings anyway - and no - I don't have a lady friend right now - lol!
BigToe - building a pair of electrostats would be a great project too. In theory all you need is some cling-film, a coathanger and two sheets of metal to carry a charge
I'm gagging to hear some ribbon tweeters! Post up a pic of your homebuilt sub - and your other speakers if you get a chance!
I read up about how they worked once. It's just like the difference between condenser mics and dynamic mics, they are like condenser speakers really.
Someone has DIY'ed some electrostatic headphones http://www.headwize.com/projects/showfile.php?file=radford1_prj.htm
Ribbon tweeters need not cost too much (Samson Rubicon 6A are cheap speakers utilising them). Again, its a microphone technology turned speaker, this time taken from the ribbon mic. Some full range ribbons exist now apparently.
Here is a good place to get speaker components in the UK:
https://secure.wilmslow-audio.co.uk/acatalog/
I'm also interested in seeing your sub . I made one a few years back, but I didn't use any maths 
. It is just a 30cm ported cube enclosure with an 8" Hi-Fi woofer driver (Audax). It's in the loft now, It didn't work too badly from what I remember.
Someone has DIY'ed some electrostatic headphones
http://www.headwize.com/projects/showfile.php?file=radford1_prj.htmRibbon tweeters need not cost too much (Samson Rubicon 6A are cheap speakers utilising them). Again, its a microphone technology turned speaker, this time taken from the ribbon mic. Some full range ribbons exist now apparently.
Here is a good place to get speaker components in the UK:
https://secure.wilmslow-audio.co.uk/acatalog/
I'm also interested in seeing your sub
. I made one a few years back, but I didn't use any maths . It is just a 30cm ported cube enclosure with an 8" Hi-Fi woofer driver (Audax). It's in the loft now, It didn't work too badly from what I remember.