How to fix the world...

[Mason-]

And the underlying cause of a conflict between Civilisation A and Civilisation B is....Power, one civilisation seeking dominion over the other using their religion as the justifying factor...the cause is not the religion itself, but the need for dominion and power manifested through religion. We see similar conflicts justified by ideology and politics...some of the major conflicts in our history have been justified by the spread of Democracy or Communism..when the underlying factor is ultimately control and power.

What if their reasons are:
"But my god told me to, I am helping them, we don't want control or power over them we just want them to follow the one, true religion, their religion isn't true, it's lies, honest, ask my priest"
Can you not see how religion is people taking things that aren't one hundred percent true, interpretable at best and passing them on as fact and as being the one true way of life.

Again I go back to is it: cause A's conflict being justified by religion or religion's conflict being justified by cause A.

Wars of conflict and power are a lot more concrete, "we want what you have and we're going to take it".
Wars of religion are not so concrete, "What I believe is correct, what you believe in isn't correct, we will make you believe".

Few wars are that simple.

I do doubt any war has ever been that simple, however it has been a major factor in a lot of wars.

 

[Dolph]

So perhaps faith (in this context) is a coefficient of education and knowledge?

Faith in my view in this context is more about using something to fill gaps. Previously religion was used in this way, now many people look to science to do the same, with the same lack of understanding that the religious often show, and the same lack of understanding about the fundamentals that differentiates a scholar from a lay person in both subjects.

 

[Castiel]

No as the loss of that persons something may have not been a result of conflict (or greed) however the retaliation can be a conflict.

It is still the result of Human Emotion...which is the point being made...how that manifests is the justification, not the underlying cause.

The destruction of the WTC wasn't motivated by religion for example...it was justified by it..it was motivated by an opposition to a political and economic ideology that the protagonists feel subjugates them.

The Crusades for example were justified by religion, but in reality they were motivated by power brokering and land acquisition.

The Balkan conflicts, again justified by religion, but motivated by cultural and historical divisions from previous conflicts...again the underlying causes were justified by religion, religion wasn't the underlying cause.

Religion is a tool, it can be used to bring peace or to bring war...but it is still just a tool, and saying it is the cause of a conflict is like stating the Gun or the Club is the cause of a conflict.

 

[Mason-]

It is still the result of Human Emotion...which is the point being made...how that manifests is the justification, not the underlying cause.

Okay fine so everything is caused by emotion, but what is a worse motivator.
"A + B are married, person C kills B because he's a nutjob, person A kills person C in retaliation"
"A wants something of B's, A kills B and takes it"

What A does is wrong on both counts but which would receive more sympathy from Human Emotion. Which one seems the more justified, which one is less wrong.

Greed vs Grievance again and I think religious conflict comes a lot of the time from grievance rather than from greed.

The destruction of the WTC wasn't motivated by religion for example...it was justified by it..it was motivated by an opposition to a political and economic ideology that the protagonists feel subjugates them.

And what was that opposition? A religions beliefs.

The Crusades for example were justified by religion, but in reality they were motivated by power brokering and land acquisition.

The Balkan conflicts, again justified by religion, but motivated by cultural and historical divisions from previous conflicts...again the underlying causes were justified by religion, religion wasn't the underlying cause.

Agreed on both counts.

Religion is a tool, it can be used to bring peace or to bring war...but it is still just a tool, and saying it is the cause of a conflict is like stating the Gun or the Club is the cause of a conflict.

lol.

 

[Castiel]

What if their reasons are:
"But my god told me to, I am helping them, we don't want control or power over them we just want them to follow the one, true religion, their religion isn't true, it's lies, honest, ask my priest"
Can you not see how religion is people taking things that aren't one hundred percent true, interpretable at best and passing them on as fact and as being the one true way of life.

Can you show me a real world example of this kind of conflict?

Again I go back to is it: cause A's conflict being justified by religion or religion's conflict being justified by cause A.

Wars of conflict and power are a lot more concrete, "we want what you have and we're going to take it".
Wars of religion are not so concrete, "What I believe is correct, what you believe in isn't correct, we will make you believe".

Can you point to a War of Religion that illustrates this perspective?

I do doubt any war has ever been that simple, however it has been a major factor in a lot of wars.

A factor is not necessarily the cause...it can be the justifying factor...justifying the underlying cause.

 

[Dolph]

If we are blaming religion, can we count the number of people purged by stalin based on their religion against atheism, or are we not being logically consistent?

 

[Castiel]

And what was that opposition? A religions beliefs.

What makes you say that? The opposition is a political one, not a religious one. The religion (on both sides to some degree) has been interpreted and used to justify that political stance, but the causes are deeply rooted in an anti-Western ideology empowered by historical and political divisions on one side and a need for economic and strategic hegemony on the other.

Agreed on both counts.

Perhaps you can show one that illustrates your perspective?

lol.

 

[Castiel]

If we are blaming religion, can we count the number of people purged by stalin based on their religion against atheism, or are we not being logically consistent?

Precisely.

 

[Castiel]

Faith in my view in this context is more about using something to fill gaps. Previously religion was used in this way, now many people look to science to do the same, with the same lack of understanding that the religious often show, and the same lack of understanding about the fundamentals that differentiates a scholar from a lay person in both subjects.

Again, precisely. Religion is a manifestation of Faith.

 

[Biohazard]

If we are blaming religion, can we count the number of people purged by stalin based on their religion against atheism, or are we not being logically consistent?

You do that anyway?

 

[Burnsy2023]

I'm going to bed, I hope we can keep this adult and reasonable? I really don't want to suspend people when I read this tomorrow.

 

[Terrier_Jimlad]

Expand Yorkshire, that'll do tha trick!

 

[Mason-]

I'm going to bed, I hope we can keep this adult and reasonable? I really don't want to suspend people when I read this tomorrow.

I'm a reasonable guy, Castiel and Biohazard are too don't see it going that way tbh however I am going to bed too.

As to Castiel there are plenty of examples, google religious war however I feel as though if I point out any single one you will argue that the major cause may not be religion however that is open to debate. That's what this is.

Expand Yorkshire, that'll do tha trick!

Sounds good.

 

[Biohazard]

I'm going to bed, I hope we can keep this adult and reasonable? I really don't want to suspend people when I read this tomorrow.

You get off to bed sweetheart, we'll be fine and tidy up after ourselves.

Sweet dreams.

x

ps: your lunch is in the fridge.

 

[Dolph]

You do that anyway?

Only as a counter to the 'religion causes deaths/war' argument. Wars are caused by people wanting land and power, the rest is just a distraction.

 

[Castiel]

I'm a reasonable guy, Castiel and Biohazard are too don't see it going that way tbh.

I don't think Burnsy is referring to us specifically, but the nature of these kind of threads and how they often turn out.

As to Castiel there are plenty of examples, google religious war however I feel as though if I point out any single one you will argue that the major cause may not be religion however that is open to debate. That's what this is.

I work in this field so I don't need to google Religious Wars...and you are right I could potentially point to underlying causal factors that underline the point I am making. Everything is open to debate, it would be a poor discussion if it were not.

In any case I am off to bed as well so I bid you all a goodnight. It's been a an interesting discussion.

 

[mattyfez]

Again, precisely. Religion is a manifestation of Faith.

I don't agree, you can believe that situations will change, because they do, we can all demonstrate and all attest to that.

It's out dated ideals and idol worship, that seem to be a major issue.

 

[Biohazard]

Only as a counter to the 'religion causes deaths/war' argument. Wars are caused by people wanting land and power, the rest is just a distraction.

Normally as a 'bash bash bash' to try and meld socialism with a cataclysm of certain massacre?

 

[Rroff]

Neither fact nor religion can fix the world's problems. The only way it happens is if people globally can see the world as in the words of carl sagan as a single organism.

 

[Dolph]

Normally as a 'bash bash bash' to try and meld socialism with a cataclysm of certain massacre?

That's a separate issue where nearly every attempt at implementing leftwing economics involves significant human rights abuses, nothing to do with religon, everything to do with power and control.