How to recover a fishtailing RWD vehicle

[Mr_Sukebe]

Get yourself on a skid course, it'll be the best 100 odd quid you'll ever spend!

After a morning of repetitively having the car lose the back end catching it, it becomes 2nd nature and it takes away the blind panic when it happens to you in real life.

As you're only on the wirral get down to here http://www.angleseycircuit.com/performance-driving-centre/skid-control

I managed to do it free through work but would have happily paid the price myself for how much safer i feel on the road now. Its saved me several times on track days with being able to calmly correct a massive slide and carry on without any panicking, and im sure it'll continue to help me if we get one of those bad winters again.

+1.
Explaining the process to you is simple pointless.
There is just NO substitute for experience, as you'll never remember a "recommendation" at the time you really need it. It's either instinctive because of experience, or not.
As suggested, go spend some dosh on a skid pan course. Secondly, next time it snows, go have a play in a place where you can do it safely.

 

[acharris]

I know this is obvious now and no-one seemed to mention it, but if I was in the situation that I was on cruise on and it started to hail/rain first thing I would have done was turned the cruise control off before I reduced the speed, as probably the way the cruise reduces speed on the buttons might have introduced the aquaplaining that caused the skid due to the power not being cut smoothly.

In any weather like that I always turn cruise off. And before any says my skid control is very good and have got myself out of many situations in both FWD and RWD cars in all weather conditions even the 2 bad winters, but I believe that on weather cruise can introduce traction problems due the constant power or the way the system slows the car down. Just my opinion.

 

[ChrisD.]

If it is major out of control then dip the clutch and steer it back in line or spin it away from solid objects.

Dipping the clutch is one of the worst things you can do.

 

[Clarkey]

Dipping the clutch is one of the worst things you can do.

How did you come to that conclusion?

 

[ChrisD.]

Because you remove all drive going to the driven wheels, reducing the chances of regaining any grip.

Dipping the clutch is the last resort when all else fails.

 

[Tom_ed1987]

You should never use cruise control in the rain. Pretty sure this is well publicised?

"turning into the skid and freezing your right foot in its current position" is about the best explanation you are going to get. Wait unil we have a light dusting of snow, go to your nearest empty carpark and have a low speed play about is my advice.

 

[Clarkey]

That's what I said, isn't it?

Besides, adding power or retardation to the rear wheels is only going to make things worse. Without drive, the tyres are free to do whatever happens naturally (go straight ) and the diff will be unlocked (yes I appreciate the OP has an open).
Riding out a slide on the power is clearly the winners way, but then the car wouldn't be fishtailing.
I'm pretty shocked a DSC equipped car would get into such a situation anyway though. My experience is that it will not let go get into anything silly no matter how ham fisted you are.

 

[Firestar_3x]

You should never use cruise control in the rain. Pretty sure this is well publicised?

Erm, what?

 

[ChrisD.]

That's what I said, isn't it?

Besides, adding power or retardation to the rear wheels is only going to make things worse. Without drive, the tyres are free to do whatever happens naturally (go straight ) and the diff will be unlocked (yes I appreciate the OP has an open).
Riding out a slide on the power is clearly the winners way, but then the car wouldn't be fishtailing.
I'm pretty shocked a DSC equipped car would get into such a situation anyway though. My experience is that it will not let go get into anything silly no matter how ham fisted you are.

My apologies, I think I misread what you said.

Although I always thought the dipping the clutch trick should only really be used in FWD cars that have had the back step out? Never toyed with a RWD car tbh. It's tempting me to buy a cheap MX5 though and have a play.

Cue 'just binned my Mazda' thread in 4 months.

 

[DannyDan]

Do the front tyres have quite a bit more tread? - this, low tread on rear, good tread on the front, would make the rear end wayward in this sort of scenario imo.

Yup, fronts have a good bit more on. They're all being replaced with non-runflats in the next few weeks.

I'm amazed that in a split second you attempted to turn off cruise control. What were you doing with your feet during these few seconds of lost control?

I turned off cruise control (or attempted to, it may already have been off) as soon as I realised the rear of the car was starting to slide around. I was neither accelerating nor braking to begin with, although I did have a go at braking as a last-ditch attempt to save things at one point

The split second the car detects instability, cruise control is disengaged automatically (as Fox said). You would know if it had disengaged itself as it "bongs" at you.

It definitely didn't bong at me It is pre-LCI though, maybe it's different for pre-LCI cars?

I'm pretty shocked a DSC equipped car would get into such a situation anyway though. My experience is that it will not let go get into anything silly no matter how ham fisted you are.

I can only assume that by the time traction had been lost it was too late for DSC to recover it? The DSC system itself seems to be working OK and has activated enough times over the past few weeks when I've pulled out of junctions swiftly in the wet etc.

 

[Scania]

Yup, fronts have a good bit more on. They're all being replaced with non-runflats in the next few weeks.

I'd take this as a lucky escape, & change them in the next few days!

You could so easily have stacked it, if funds don't allow, at least put the better tyres on the rear (assuming the size is the same)

 

[shoes]

Although I always thought the dipping the clutch trick should only really be used in FWD cars that have had the back step out?

On the contrary, bucket loads of throttle are needed in a FWD car to pull it straight again.

What on earth you would be doing with your fwd car stepping out at the rear I do not know though, breaking the law, that's for sure

 

[Gaygle]

It's quite easily done on FWD. All you have to do is go onto a damp roundabout, turn in sharpish, let off the throttle, and just watch the back end go.

 

[shoes]

It's quite easily done on FWD. All you have to do is go onto a damp roundabout, turn in sharpish, let off the throttle, and just watch the back end go.

I tried this time and time again on my old focus, the only time I ever managed liftoff oversteer was when overspeeding into a corner and lifting off just before the apex and getting a little skid on the way out. This is something I didn't like doing as it's scary on the public road.

Watching people achieve it on track seems to require similar speed and recklessness.

 

[Gaygle]

Trust me, crap tyres and a greasy surface work wonders. Not to mention something with a longer wheelbase probably would have been easier to step out.

I remember doing it a couple of times in my Primera GT - was very scary, but just touching the throttle made everything come back into line perfectly. And this was at no more than about 30mph.

 

[Liampope]

Get yourself on a skid course, it'll be the best 100 odd quid you'll ever spend!

After a morning of repetitively having the car lose the back end catching it, it becomes 2nd nature and it takes away the blind panic when it happens to you in real life.

As you're only on the wirral get down to here http://www.angleseycircuit.com/performance-driving-centre/skid-control

I managed to do it free through work but would have happily paid the price myself for how much safer i feel on the road now. Its saved me several times on track days with being able to calmly correct a massive slide and carry on without any panicking, and im sure it'll continue to help me if we get one of those bad winters again.

+2. Experience is the only way you'll ever be able to reliably control such a situation. I honestly think skid training should be part of learning to drive (it is over here in norway). Go on a skid course or find a safe area in the wet/snow to get to know oversteer.

To control and recover oversteer without fishtailing/tankslapper you need to dial on the right amount of opposit lock and, even more importantly, dial it off at the right time when the rear tyres bite.

Inexperienced drivers will do two things. 1 - they'll dial on some opposite lock, the car doesn't respond immediately, so they dial on more, and more. Then they have far too much. 2 - they will not react quick enough to/anticipate the tyres biting and, coupled with having to much on in the first place (see 1), they will never dial off the opposite lock quick enough, so they'll go straight back the other way. Then the other way again, rinse and repeat. Add panic and they've no chance. They may get lucky like the OP and it collects itself or it all goes pear shaped.

That's the theory in a nutshell, but as above you wont learn what to do by reading that - experience is the only way. Plus when you can drift snow and rain is fun . My Omega was great fun and I'm looking forwards to my first winter in my 530 . My old 1.1 Pug 205 was an absolute lift-off oversteer champion too! It was damn near unavoidable exiting a roundabout with some speed in the wet!

 

[Django x2]

Trust me, crap tyres and a greasy surface work wonders. Not to mention something with a longer wheelbase probably would have been easier to step out.

I remember doing it a couple of times in my Primera GT - was very scary, but just touching the throttle made everything come back into line perfectly. And this was at no more than about 30mph.

Eh? Longer wheelbase FWD cars are harder to step out than short wheelbase FWD cars. Wifes Swift Sport will let go at the back with consummate ease for instance, compared to my friends mondeo, which won't, it just understeers.

 

[Dr Who]

so I disengaged the cruise control which only seemed to completely throw the car out of balance.

That is exactly what happened.

The rear end slid due to the conditions, you removed throttle (by disengaging the cruise) which shifted the weight forward onto the front wheels and off the rear wheels before you corrected with opposite lock, causing the tank slapper. (Effectively you induced lift off oversteer).

To get a skid under control you do the opposite of what caused it, in this case you need to transfer the weight onto the rear wheels after applying opposite lock so they regain grip. It is counter intuitive but a light application of throttle will shift weight rearwards and gain some grip (assuming rear tyres are good enough) and allow you to regain control. This is not the case with every fishtail, some can be caused by too much power, but from what you describe, this would have been my course of action.

Opposite lock alone is not enough as without the grip at the rear it will just send the rear the opposite way as it has not regained grip.

As a rule of thumb, when correcting a skid, you should not turn the front wheels further than the direction you wish to go, ie if the car back end swings to the right, correct the rear wheels to be straight ahead by turning the wheel to the right (into the skid).

 

[Dr Who]

What on earth you would be doing with your fwd car stepping out at the rear I do not know though, breaking the law, that's for sure

Inducing LOOS on a FWD car is mandatory for driving enjoyment

 

[StonedPenguin]

As a new driver I find this scary!

That £100 skid course looks interesting, Will look into it.