how useful is a computing degree, honestly
- Thread starter joeconway
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Soldato
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One of my best friends from uni has just accepted a job at BP starting on £32k. He got a 2:1 in physics.
Yeah, but physics is hard, computing is easy.
who mentioned 9 years of education ?
It was the way your post read. I can see why he thought you mean 9 years in education, and not 9 years after education.
InvG
Many companies just wont look at you if you don't have a degree. E.g. IBM wont accept anything less than 2.1.
Yes, everyone and his dog has a degree these day, but that means it is even more important to have a degree and not appear sub par. What you neeed to do is show yourself as better than the other graduates with a degre. You need to do a good course at a good university and get a good grade (preferably a first). Then go on and do a Masters.
Companies will hunt you down then.
Yes, everyone and his dog has a degree these day, but that means it is even more important to have a degree and not appear sub par. What you neeed to do is show yourself as better than the other graduates with a degre. You need to do a good course at a good university and get a good grade (preferably a first). Then go on and do a Masters.
Companies will hunt you down then.
Soldato
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You are right, you should see some of the stuff i churn out!I've seen likewise for British programmers. Amazingly enough, there are good and bad Indian programmers just as there are good and bad British programmers. I'm not sure what your point was
My point was a bit of a side track one. Outsource to India is not always a good thing. RANDOM!
Yeah, but physics is hard, computing is easy.
It was the way your post read. I can see why he thought you mean 9 years in education, and not 9 years after education.
InvG
yes, apologies folks, I can see how that was not clear
I meant as in "9 years on FROM a degree"
Utter respect for people that do that. Some of you may have read an article written on a certain forum by someone high up in the forensic science labs in the UK. He writes algorithms etc used for data recovery from so call "military grade wiped hard disks" and also owns a company that does similar things to the article you mentioned, running mathmatical algorithms on images to show where they've been photoshopped or partially obscured. He has about 12 years of academic background and earns an utter fortune, but its a way of life not a job. I like my job and what I do but after earning enough to meet my requirement my priorties lie else where. Work to live not live to work comes to mind
My point was a bit of a side track one. Outsource to India is not always a good thing. RANDOM!
As a software developer myself, I agree entirely
Utter respect for people that do that. Some of you may have read an article written on a certain forum by someone high up in the forensic science labs in the UK. He writes algorithms etc used for data recovery from so call "military grade wiped hard disks" and also owns a company that does similar things to the article you mentioned, running mathmatical algorithms on images to show where they've been photoshopped or partially obscured. He has about 12 years of academic background and earns an utter fortune, but its a way of life not a job. I like my job and what I do but after earning enough to meet my requirement my priorties lie else where. Work to live not live to work comes to mind
Thats very true, but at the same time I don't think you need academic training to make a mint (look at Michael Dell and Bill Gates, both in the Forbes 10 ten richest Americans and both uni drop outs).
I wouldn't say physics is easier or harder than computer science. Generally I think you need to be more creative in CS than Physics (unless you work in some of the more obscure theoretical stuff like ***).
Microsoft is quite hypocritical when it comes to qualifications, they dont accept MSCE etc... for their research positions, maybe that should tell you a little bit about the difference between true CS jobs and monkey jobs...
Directly from MS Research's Cambridge website:
"Research Software Development Engineers (RSDE) are strong software developers with a Bachelors Degree, and often a Masters or Ph.D. in computer science. Most RSDE positions work with researchers to help them implement ideas into prototypes and help transfer technology into Microsoft products. In some cases, they may also assist with publishing papers"
For those of you unsure of what "proper" CS is, their video library is worth a look at http://www.researchchannel.org/prog/displayinst.aspx?fID=880
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I understand that totally, MCSE is using their product. Its like saying you can design a car because you studied the manual for the last model
EDIT: watching the video on 802.11i, interesting stuff that I totally understand etc, but do I have a monkey job because I would look at advising a client on implementing 802.11i rather than a 'proper' CS job by working ON the actually protocol
EDIT: watching the video on 802.11i, interesting stuff that I totally understand etc, but do I have a monkey job because I would look at advising a client on implementing 802.11i rather than a 'proper' CS job by working ON the actually protocol
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You may well have a point but every FTSE250 company I've ever worked for or with has made it a requirement of staff in well paid positions of having a degree. Right or wrong it is a fact of life and not having the degree restricts opportunities.
We can debate of the merits or drawbacks of not having a degree, but another way to look at it may be, "What downsides are there in having a degree when looking for a job?" None - so why limit yourself.
I would question the value of an IT degree given the ever changing nature of software tools and methodologies. Most jobs (not trainee ones) require 2 years experience of the latest language (even though the language has only been available for 6 months!!).
My advice would be to do a business type of degree, which would demonstrate an understanding of what the project is trying to do within the context of the organisation. For the IT knowledge I would do one of the "Keonig Solutions" 2 month courses in India to gain a Microsoft certification. This would cost about £3k.
You would then appear as a person who is certified in the latest IT technology and has the ability to talk to business users and understand their requirements, in their own language.
Also given the current trend in outsourcing, there may not be many jobs available when you finish your IT degree, whereas a business type of degree will provide more alternative opportunities.
I would go to India myself, however having spent a 2 week holiday in Goa, the climate does not agree with me.
My advice would be to do a business type of degree, which would demonstrate an understanding of what the project is trying to do within the context of the organisation. For the IT knowledge I would do one of the "Keonig Solutions" 2 month courses in India to gain a Microsoft certification. This would cost about £3k.
You would then appear as a person who is certified in the latest IT technology and has the ability to talk to business users and understand their requirements, in their own language.
Also given the current trend in outsourcing, there may not be many jobs available when you finish your IT degree, whereas a business type of degree will provide more alternative opportunities.
I would go to India myself, however having spent a 2 week holiday in Goa, the climate does not agree with me.
I question that.
Looking specifically at developers, theres loads around that dont have degrees yet are very very good at what they do.
What do you consider a 'monkey role'?
Are you applying this to all areas of computing? or just development?
being 3 years behind your job rivals?
+ Debts.(for a lot of students).
All areas of computing here, you can be at AT&T labs and still be doing a tech monkey job.
A computer scientist should not care about what language they have to program in, what platform they use nor nature of the task they are given.
I'm sure that lots of people without degrees are great programmers or web site designers, I don't doubt that. But that does not mean they are computer scientists. Like I say for jobs around data warehousing or technical network support, you don't need a computer science degree and for good reason.
I know full well with some of the computer scientists I've worked with in the past if I went to them and gave them a truely unique task, they'd think back straight to their CS training.
Lets take an example, I get a group of Computer scientists together and say
"okay I want you to build a system to scan images from the security camera at the front entrace to the building, it needs to detect the faces of the people, and cross reference them against a stored database of employee photos and alert security if they are not in there".
You honestly think someone without a degree (or in fairness for a MSc or PhD) would have a remote chance of doing this?
This would require the mix of training a CS degree gives you. I dont care if you have 20, 40 or 100 years experiance in building websites or configuring routers you'd have no chance.
Davem
BoomAM said:
Doing what though? I don't see people like website developers being in the same job market as me.
You don't though - you go straight to the head of the queue via graduate programmes.
BoomAM said:
Countered by the higher salaries that graduates are statistically more likely to earn.
Soldato
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No offence, but it's different.
Computing jobs can and are done by people without a degree, Doctors on the other hand are required to have degrees etc.
InvG
To Scorza and DaveM, you are wasting your breath, I have had the same arguments with mates who said me going to uni was a waste of 3 years, and that i should have went into an apprenticeship and work my way up.
Now I finished uni and got a job with a good engineering company earning quite a bit more than them and I get "You were lucky to get that job" etc etc
While doing my MSc I had a particular friend tell me that "no one would employ graduate in engineering company with out experience"
I dont speak to this friend much but last time I heard he was still working the crappy mechanics job while trying to get his company to pay for him to do a degree part time.
So after all of his experience in a totally irrelavant field (as ultimatly being a machinist/spanner monkey =! engineer regardless of how many "Gas Engineers" you get nowadays) he will finish his degree 5 maybe 6yr behind me, by this point I would have been chartered with the IMechE or IMarEST etc.
People like to think graduates have it easy then are lucky, but it simply comes down to some jobs are not for everyone.
KaHn
Now I finished uni and got a job with a good engineering company earning quite a bit more than them and I get "You were lucky to get that job" etc etc
While doing my MSc I had a particular friend tell me that "no one would employ graduate in engineering company with out experience"
I dont speak to this friend much but last time I heard he was still working the crappy mechanics job while trying to get his company to pay for him to do a degree part time.
So after all of his experience in a totally irrelavant field (as ultimatly being a machinist/spanner monkey =! engineer regardless of how many "Gas Engineers" you get nowadays) he will finish his degree 5 maybe 6yr behind me, by this point I would have been chartered with the IMechE or IMarEST etc.
People like to think graduates have it easy then are lucky, but it simply comes down to some jobs are not for everyone.
KaHn