how useful is a computing degree, honestly

[DAVEM]

I only know some of those concepts in real detail, but then i never claim that I am a computer scientist- I'm a psychologist.....

Well I'm not overly familiar with Bayesian methods or Gibbs Fields (Bayesians < frequentists anyhow). But I could write a book on Wavelet theory and non-linear modeling. It's suprising how much statistics computer science courses actually have in them. I learn't neural networking via a CS course and not a maths/stats course.

I'm not a computer scientist either, I'm a mathematician / economist, but in reality that equals computer scientist

 

[NokkonWud]

There are loads of different computing degree's.

Anyone without a degree can get anywhere anyone with a degree can get, it's just often a little more difficult. As with most things, it's who you know, but if you're good enough already then you might not need it [the degree].

 

[BoomAM]

All areas of computing here, you can be at AT&T labs and still be doing a tech monkey job.

So what is a monkey job to you in regards to network administration/maintenence then?
I ask because you are lumping a lot of areas into one blanket comment. Which apart from having many flaws that depend on the computing profession chosen, is a little insulting to a lot of people.

Like I say for jobs around data warehousing or technical network support, you don't need a computer science degree and for good reason.

So are they lesser professionals computer wise? Do they require less knowledge/intelligence to do?

Countered by the higher salaries that graduates are statistically more likely to earn.

That they dont nessesarily get.
Uni students are brainwashed to think that they can walk into a high payed job strait out of Uni. When its complete and utter nonscence unless they pick a speciality thats in demand or in industry.
I know a lot of Uni students, and only one managed that, and he's a researcher at the Uni he studyed at.
I know more graduates that have ended up doing dead end office jobs than i do ones that have this mythical high payed job that most think they are gonna get.

Some areas of computing do lend themselves to the theory that a degree will give them.
But theres just as many areas where the theory is just that, theory, and where experiance is worth just as much, if not more.

 

[DAVEM]

So what is a monkey job to you in regards to network administration/maintenence then?
I ask because you are lumping a lot of areas into one blanket comment. Which apart from having many flaws that depend on the computing profession chosen, is a little insulting to a lot of people.

I'm sorry if it's not an easy thing to hear but it is the truth. I'm not saying it doesn't take skill, I am saying it's not computer science, and I would assert that you can train people with all sorts of backgrounds to do jobs such as network support and web design.

You can read a set of Oracle Server documents and act as an Oracle DBA. You can read a set of MSCE course notes and administer a reasonably sized MS based network. You can read a "teach yourself C++" and write a decent C++ database app.

You can not read a book(s) and learn how to do computer science.

So are they lesser professionals computer wise? Do they require less knowledge/intelligence to do?

Yes and yes.

It's similar to the difference of being an account as apposed to setting economic policy in government. Or making sandwiches vs being a chef.

For example being secondary school network technician doesn't require the same intelliegence, training or technical knowledge as designing software for the UK's trident submarines.

Davem

 

[[TW]Fox]

Yes, that's how I read it, 9 years after completing a degree the degree would count for nothing, the 9 years experience would be what I looked at, now if the degree got them a better start towards that 9 years experience then maybe it was some use but the fact of having the degree would mean nothing at this point

No it wouldn't, thats not what a degree is. It's not an alternative for experience, it's in addition to. You don't learn on a job in 10 years everything you learn on a 3 year degree. A degree teaches you all sorts of things, many you may never use for 15-20 years..

 

[leaskovski]

You can read a "teach yourself C++" and write a decent C++ database app.

Why you would choose C++ to do that though is beyond me! Overkill comes to mind.

 

[rick827]

Why you would choose C++ to do that though is beyond me! Overkill comes to mind.

I imagine knowing c++ would come in handy if you need to write a c++ DBA app

 

[[TW]Fox]

For that much experience, and that much time, the degree is negligible.

So you are saying that once passed the age of 30, your degree becomes worthless?

Yea, ok.

 

[Gilly]

Dependant on the degree and area of business it is worthless well before that

 

[[TW]Fox]

Dependant on the degree and area of business it is worthless well before that

Let me guess, no IT degree for you either?

 

[InvaderGIR]

Dependant on the degree and area of business it is worthless well before that

With the rate that computers change these days it can be very quick depending on the degree.

My course is not CS, just Computing, which means that I don't cover the bottom level stuff like machine code etc. but create programs via bashing out a set language. I also do websites, networking, databases and about computer systems. Well that was first year, this year I get to do more programming, more in depth this time, as well as games development, AI and some other things.
Basically my first two years cover the general basics of computing, which means the degree isn't worthless.

The third year is a placement year, and I hope to get one in a decent position in the IT industry.

The final year is then focusing on the set area you want, be it, AI, Databases, Programming etc.
That's the part of the degree that if not chosen well could well be lost with months/years due to changes in technology.
As yet I don't know which sector I will aim for for the final year as I haven't covered all the topics we are able to do, so don't know which is my favourite or best to choose.

The whole course will not be meaningless in years to come, but my chosen area may well be if I don't pick well for my interests and the way the IT industry appears to be heading at the time.

InvG

 

[InvaderGIR]

Let me guess, no IT degree for you either?

Out of interest, what course are you doing at Uni?

InvG

 

[BoomAM]

You can read a set of Oracle Server documents and act as an Oracle DBA. You can read a set of MSCE course notes and administer a reasonably sized MS based network. You can read a "teach yourself C++" and write a decent C++ database app.

You can not read a book(s) and learn how to do computer science.

Not true.
I know a few people who think they can read books/whatnot to become a network techy, but they lack the viewpoint that makes a technician a technician. They dont think things through logically. You cant teach that.

Yes and yes.

Well im sorry but your being arrogant & ignorent.
If you truely think that computer scientists/researchers are more intelligent than some who manages a network then your just showing yourself up im afriad.
Intelligence is relative. While the computer scientist might well be good at doing his calculations and simulations, i highly doubt that they'd be able to grasp the workings of a network at a high level, a level thats often needed in big corporations. And visa-versa.
Your opinion you've put across there is exactely the opinion that grinds me about students/graduates.

So, just to clear this up, incase i misread, you actually think that a computer scientist means that they are more intelligent than a network manager/equlivent?

 

[[TW]Fox]

I'm doing business.

The thing with IT degrees though is that don't teach you how to work the current version of Windows. Surely its the stuff behind that - the fundamental stuff that remains the same as the industry evolves?

That sort of stuff never goes out of date.

 

[InvaderGIR]

I'm doing business.

The thing with IT degrees though is that don't teach you how to work the current version of Windows. Surely its the stuff behind that - the fundamental stuff that remains the same as the industry evolves?

That sort of stuff never goes out of date.

That's it, well basically. We program in Java, whilst it updates, it's a current language used in a lot of things, like phones etc. And it isn't all that hard to keep up with the revisions of it.

We haven't covered OSes (not sure that we do), to be honest I'd rather not, because as you say, they change, but the stuff behind them doesn't.

Some stuff may go out of date, but the majority won't due to the fact it isn't based solely on what is the best part/OS/etc. at the moment.

InvG

 

[leaskovski]

We haven't covered OSes (not sure that we do), to be honest I'd rather not, because as you say, they change, but the stuff behind them doesn't.

You probably will cover Operating Systems, but not how to use them, how to design them and how they are designed (layers/onions and all that). Well i know i did when i did my Computer Systems Engineering Course at Kent 5 Years back.

 

[~J~]

Good example regarding degrees, experience and how useless they "can" become.

Had a bloke with with me, great guy, knew his stuff. Worked in the steel industry for 8 years, got made redundant, went out and bought a PC, blah blah blah. Went to night classes, got a degree in website design and development. The things this guy didn't know wasn't worth knowing anyway.

His designs were brilliant, even did some DHTML for added affects and knew all about cross platforms for different browsers, CSS, a bit of javascript, the works.

One MAJOR issue though which Pete had major problems with, something that had been drilled into him from all those hours at uni, all those books he'd bought and all those notes he took at lectures.

He got this degree about 4 years ago, before the attitude of "Tables are not to be used for layout, use DIVS and CSS instead". He couldn't do it. He could NOT migrate from a <TABLE> to a <DIV> because although he understood it, it was simply not what he'd been taught and so thought it was wrong.

So was his degree useless? No, of course it wasn't, it taught him MANY other things besides tables and he still does websites now (and very good they are too). But it took him almost three times longer to adopt this new approach than the guys that had evolved with the changes in technology and didn't have curriculums to adhere to. Those that were free to go with the flow, get to grips in a practical environment were far more adaptable than the guy with the degree.

Like I said, I'm not dissing them, but the amount of people I meet (on here too!) whose attitude is "Well I have a degree" is laughable.

 

[InvaderGIR]

You probably will cover Operating Systems, but not how to use them, how to design them and how they are designed (layers/onions and all that). Well i know i did when i did my Computer Systems Engineering Course at Kent 5 Years back.

Year 2 – Level I
Entertainment and Game Development
Internet Software Applications and Technologies
Requirements, Analysis & Specification
Object Oriented Programming
Management of Software Production
Artificial Intelligence
Interface Design

Looks like we skip over OSes and just do GUIs. Although I'm not sure that is my course (can never remember the correct name), but the first 2 years of most of the 'Computing: x' courses are the same here.

I'll obviously find out more once we start (next week).

InvG

 

[Zefan]

Looks like we skip over OSes and just do GUIs. Although I'm not sure that is my course (can never remember the correct name), but the first 2 years of most of the 'Computing: x' courses are the same here.

I'll obviously find out more once we start (next week).

InvG

Is the "Bournemouth Courses" quote the list of modules for your course?

 

[InvaderGIR]

To me the degree is a help, not a means/alternative to experience. I want it to help me to get experience, so I can move ahead in the industry. I don't see it as being something that will mean I must get the job over someone with experience, I mostly hope it'll improve my chances of employment.

InvG