Huge accident on M5

[Nexus]

Fireworks do create walls of smoke though.

Huge professional displays tend to be largely aerial based because its the only way they can be seen. A small scale professional display such as the one in question will feature a lot of ground based roman candle/fountain type displays because the audience can see them. These are like flares and give off a ton of smoke, mix that with fog and poor conditions and it makes sense.

By no means am I saying this is the only reason, the drivers reactions are what will have caused the actual accident that occurred.

 

[ubersonic]

By no means am I saying this is the only reason, the drivers reactions are what will have caused the actual accident that occurred.

How exactly should they have reacted when everything went black? slowed down and got hit from behind? maintained speed and hoped people ahead had done so too? and how were they supposed to make sure they didn't hit any of the invisible vehicles in other lanes considering they couldn't see the lanes to tell if they were drifting or not?

Nobody without Jedi powers could have reacted safely to what happened...

 

[scorza]

As much as I completely hate fireworks I have never seen them cause a blanket of black smoke before
Or perhaps it is there but invisible until it hits fog.

Me neither - I just wanted to point out that there wasn't a bonfire at the rugby club. I am somewhat sceptical about the claim that the fireworks caused a bank of smoke that drifted over the motorway. However I'm by no means an expert - surely this would be quite apparent on the motorway camera footage?

 

[Nexus]

How exactly should they have reacted when everything went black? slowed down and got hit from behind? maintained speed and hoped people ahead had done so too? and how were they supposed to make sure they didn't hit any of the invisible vehicles in other lanes considering they couldn't see the lanes to tell if they were drifting or not?

Nobody without Jedi powers could have reacted safely to what happened...

Like I've said numerous times now, it's likely a combination of factors. If most people slowed down, as you should in such a situation, then it only takes one driver to be going faster to have not seen a car in front to have caused a chain reaction.

The highway code of course states when faced with fog or a bank of something that obscures the road:
"be able to pull up well within the distance you can see clearly. This is particularly important on motorways and dual carriageways, as vehicles are*travelling faster"

So if you can't see in front of you, you should not be ploughing on at 70. So it may have been a drivers fault, but again if the smoke is a result of the fireworks it's just as much their fault that it happened.

It's interesting to see how this is all going to play out, as they will want to assign blame somewhere.

 

[Skillmister]

I've never seen a blanket of black smoke from fireworks either. Nor from a bonfire, not unless they were burning tyres and huge amounts of plastic

Sorry, it just doesn't stack up to me.

If they set off a load of fountains or small fireworks they create way more smoke than rockets. We had a small £5 box for Diwali and the smoke from them was crazy it completely filled our garden, coupled with heavy fog i can imagine how low visibility would be.

 

[cm1179]

Well after watching a witness statement on the News the woman said the Iceland lorry in front was there and a split second later it was gone.
I've been driving daily for many years and I've hit fog countless times but I've always been able to see the lights on the vehicle in front.

exactly. ''an emulsion of fog'' like someone has thrown white paint over your front windscreen, you cannot see a thing! people are saying they wouldn't brake in this instance? really!

 

[[TW]Fox]

exactly. ''an emulsion of fog'' like someone has thrown white paint over your front windscreen, you cannot see a thing! people are saying they wouldn't brake in this instance? really!

Witness testimoney after a shocking event is very unreliable.

 

[cm1179]

Witness testimoney after a shocking event is very unreliable.

but is it so hard to believe in this instance? we've all driven into fog or seen it descend, it is not a nice position to be in

 

[Cosimo]

Looks like GD is on the way to working out the cause of the accident.

 

[[TW]Fox]

we've all driven into fog or seen it descend, it is not a nice position to be in

It's not, no, but there wasn't a pileup as a result the last time you drive into awful fog. Whilst I'm not disputing it was foggy, something else had to have happened to cause this. We will have to wait for the police investigation to finish to find out what but the positioning of the trucks at the front and the proximity of the accident to a junction suggests a truck was forced to take evasive action to avoid a car joining the Motorway - possibly who didn't see the truck due to the low visibility but decided to join anyway, who knows. We'll find out in due course, provided the police don't focus everything on the Rugby club which I'm sure they won't.

 

[Westyfield2]

One other thing I don't like is that all the people they keep interviewing on the TV who came to the already in progress incident keep going on about thick black smoke and a gurt big fire.... none of them seem to comprehend that the thick black smoke they encountered may have been caused by the 34 vehicles on fire. .

 

[FTM]

It's not, no, but there wasn't a pileup as a result the last time you drive into awful fog. Whilst I'm not disputing it was foggy, something else had to have happened to cause this. We will have to wait for the police investigation to finish to find out what but the positioning of the trucks at the front and the proximity of the accident to a junction suggests a truck was forced to take evasive action to avoid a car joining the Motorway - possibly who didn't see the truck due to the low visibility but decided to join anyway, who knows. We'll find out in due course, provided the police don't focus everything on the Rugby club which I'm sure they won't.

this is the simple truth...there wasnt a crash on both carriageways, and any fog/smoke must have blown across them both..so something else happened in the northbound(?) one

 

[FTM]

The club has said there wasn't even a bonfire - it was just a fireworks display.

and they finished well before the first impact in the crash

and as for witnesses..they are hardly going to say I was driving too fast and too close for the conditions.

 

[Third Opinion]

I've never seen a blanket of black smoke from fireworks either. Nor from a bonfire, not unless they were burning tyres and huge amounts of plastic

Sorry, it just doesn't stack up to me.

Try lighting a sparkler indoors you will be amazed at the amount of smoke. The thing is you watch fireworks in the dark and don't always see how much smoke is released.

Saying that though they were 100m+ away from the carriageway so I would be very surprised if it travelled that far without dispersing by quite bit.

 

[Glaucus]

Try lighting a sparkler indoors you will be amazed at the amount of smoke. The thing is you watch fireworks in the dark and don't always see how much smoke is released.

Saying that though they were 100m+ away from the carriageway so I would be very surprised if it travelled that far without dispersing by quite bit.

It's not a wall and it certainly isn't black. You do not get thick black smoke from fireworks end off.

As said most witnesses are probably talking about the ensuing fire after the crash.

Black smoke is usually a sign of unburnt hydrocarbons. That is not a trait of propellant or explosives.

 

[wildman]

I've read all the reports and the following seem to be the main points :-

1. There was some kind of thick fog / smoke that reduced visibility
2. The Rugby club is being investigated as to whether they had a licence to hold the display
3. Eye Witnesses seem to be saying black smoke / wall of invisibility

None of this actually seems to add up

The weather conditions were bad / below average, I think this was established and can be corroborated by looking at the Met forecasts for the area on that day.

Investigating the Rugby Club is an exercise in futility. Trying to nail them on some administrative issue is counter productive. If the fireworks are to blame why was only one carriageway actually affected. Surely if the smoke was that dense it would have also been on the opposite side of the motorway. So either there were 0 cars going along the opposite side or they were simply lucky ?

Black smoke / Fog = really ? Fireworks produce quite a bit of smoke but it is all white / grey. Black Smoke is more commonly associated with burning of plasticised materials as opposed to gunpowder based ignitions ?

Something happened on that carriageway and its something that has nothing to do with a firework display which ended up to 10 minutes before the initial impact.

 

[Kerplunk]

So do we know who the 7th person who died was? We have..

Two elderly people
Two truck drivers
A father and his daughter

Or is the 7th one just too far gone to recognise?

 

[Nexus]

The other item I've seen people pick up on is as to whether there were cameras covering the motorway, which is highly likely. There have been no pictures from them released or details of what they showed. So I'd imagine the Police are holding that card close to their chest until the investigation is finished.

 

[Third Opinion]

What I find the sickest thing is the amount of opportunists using this dreadful accident to highlight there causes.

I mean without knowing any facts why are they National society for the prevention of accidents and brake going on about the planned motorway speed limit rise? They seem to have already made their minds up it was speed related.

Some silly bint was on the news saying something about how lorries will be hurtling down the motorways at 80mph. I thought lorries were restricted to 56mph.

 

[Wzd]

So do we know who the 7th person who died was? We have..

Two elderly people
Two truck drivers
A father and his daughter

Or is the 7th one just too far gone to recognise?

It said three truck drivers in the paper this morning.