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I can see you raising the price of the 768MB GeForce GTX 460

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surely you would expect benchmark sites go go beyond min/max in this day and age?

do you think they tell you about the microstuttering of most crossfire/sli setups? no they just tell you min/max.

most benchmark reviers are lazy and probably go do something else while the test runs because its a test they saw one hundred times already

btw some of the reviews did actually say they had to turn settings down on the 768mb card
 
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surely you would expect benchmark sites go go beyond min/max in this day and age?

Yes, it's a pity. HardOCP do go into more detail about the specifics of the gameplay experience than other sites, but the analysis is largely subjective. Some more quantitative analysis of framerate irregularity ("microstutter"), and VRAM limitation would be appreciated from all the major review sites. But as you have pointed out, they are married to the average-framerate bar-charts that they have been producing since the dawn of time.


Regarding the VRAM limitation issue that this thread is focussing on; it is very much game-dependent, and resolution / anti-aliasing dependent. In the case that the game is consistently using more than the total VRAM allocation of the card, there will be near-constant DRAM -> VRAM paging, and the average framerate will plummet. This will be clearly visible on average-FPS graphs. However, in the case that the VRAM limit is close to the threshold, there will be only certain game scenes where the VRAM limit is reached, leading to relatively infrequent cases of paging, which will manifest as small pauses or brief periods where the framerate drops dramatically. This is extremely disruptive to gameplay, but may not have a significant effect on average-FPS benchmark scores.

One final point to consider is that the 1Gb card has a higher memory bandwidth (not just memory capacity) than the 768Mb card. From the benchmarks posted, it seems that this tends to offer around a 5% average performance bump (between 2% and 10% in almost all cases). However, you should also consider that the GTX460s are highly overclockable cards - this is one of their main selling points. The GPU core tends to have a lot more overclocking headroom than the memory, and therefore in an overclocked configuration the cards can be more memory-bandwidth restricted than at stock (since the core clock is increased disproportionately from the memory clock). In this case, the increased memory bandwidth of the 1GB card may become more valuable, and lead to a greater difference between the two cards. If anyone has access to comparative benchmarks from heavily overclocked 768Mb / 1Gb GTX460s, it would be very interesting to see if this bears out.

Anyway, to summarise the whole thing: It's clear that the GTX460 1Gb offers better performance than the 768Mb variant. Whether it is worth the extra cash outlay will depend strongly on the needs of the individual user: The resolution they game at and how much AA they intend to use, the suite of games they expect to run, how tolerant they are to in-game hitching, how heavily they intend to overclock their card, and how much headroom they want to leave in view of potential future releases. I don't think it's possible to boil down all these factors into a "one size fits all" statement about which is better value.
 
Hello Troezar :)

Hmm I don't really see what the arguement is in this thread, more performance costs more. Seems obvious to me!
I explained this point to arc@css at the end of post #65 if you would like to read it . . . here is a little bit of it

The problem is some people giving advice don't really appear to be in possession of many "facts" and are kinda twisting the information they give to the prospective buyer to suit their own perspective . . . i.e I deem I personally need a more expensive card for my own reasons and circumstances and therefore I deem you need a more expensive card based on my own reasons and circumstances?

I think it's important that someone asking for help choosing any hardware is given good advice that serves their best interests and not the person recommending the hardware interests . . .

Some people want bang for buck some want performance at any cost
Indeed, that is beyond the scope of this specific discussion though . . . I have no problem at all if any of my fellow forum members choose to spend a vast amount of money on any of their hardware but what I object too and will always object to is if they "scaremonger" people away from a more affordable option based on reasons that simply are not based in a shared reality . . .

If they do this for good reasons based on "Fact" then they should have no problem producing the "Facts" to backup what they are saying and everyone is happy . . . however if they do this for reasons that are not based on "Fact" and instead "Conjecture" or "Speculation" then that needs to be made abundantly clear . . .

Quite a few people are clearly unable to distinguish fact from fiction, personal belief from the truth . . .

The two will never agree to change their philosophy, their brains are wired up differently
Hmmm . . . I'm not sure that is true but again this is beyond the scope of this discussion . . . I believe most people with a finite amount of cash ££ do enjoy value-for-money . . . if not I have no idea why OcUK have "This Week Only" of why indeed we see thousands of consumers flocking to Summer & Winter "SALES" :D

I gave up trying to convince people I was right years ago, of course they're still wrong but now I let them just think they are right!
It's not really about you personally being right or them personally being wrong . . . it's about all of us working together as a friendly, polite and intelligent group to search out the Truth . . . . to examine "Facts" and be prepared to discard any belief we may have had in order to increase our "Knowledge" and get closer to the Truth . . . the person who is never wrong is the person who will never learn! :cool:


Epistemology
 
Yes, it's a pity. HardOCP do go into more detail about the specifics of the gameplay experience than other sites, but the analysis is largely subjective. Some more quantitative analysis of framerate irregularity ("microstutter"), and VRAM limitation would be appreciated from all the major review sites. But as you have pointed out, they are married to the average-framerate bar-charts that they have been producing since the dawn of time.


Regarding the VRAM limitation issue that this thread is focussing on; it is very much game-dependent, and resolution / anti-aliasing dependent. In the case that the game is consistently using more than the total VRAM allocation of the card, there will be near-constant DRAM -> VRAM paging, and the average framerate will plummet. This will be clearly visible on average-FPS graphs. However, in the case that the VRAM limit is close to the threshold, there will be only certain game scenes where the VRAM limit is reached, leading to relatively infrequent cases of paging, which will manifest as small pauses or brief periods where the framerate drops dramatically. This is extremely disruptive to gameplay, but may not have a significant effect on average-FPS benchmark scores.

One final point to consider is that the 1Gb card has a higher memory bandwidth (not just memory capacity) than the 768Mb card. From the benchmarks posted, it seems that this tends to offer around a 5% average performance bump (between 2% and 10% in almost all cases). However, you should also consider that the GTX460s are highly overclockable cards - this is one of their main selling points. The GPU core tends to have a lot more overclocking headroom than the memory, and therefore in an overclocked configuration the cards can be more memory-bandwidth restricted than at stock (since the core clock is increased disproportionately from the memory clock). In this case, the increased memory bandwidth of the 1GB card may become more valuable, and lead to a greater difference between the two cards. If anyone has access to comparative benchmarks from heavily overclocked 768Mb / 1Gb GTX460s, it would be very interesting to see if this bears out.

Anyway, to summarise the whole thing: It's clear that the GTX460 1Gb offers better performance than the 768Mb variant. Whether it is worth the extra cash outlay will depend strongly on the needs of the individual user: The resolution they game at and how much AA they intend to use, the suite of games they expect to run, how tolerant they are to in-game hitching, how heavily they intend to overclock their card, and how much headroom they want to leave in view of potential future releases. I don't think it's possible to boil down all these factors into a "one size fits all" statement about which is better value.

+1 First class post, best in the thread.
 
Christ I wish I was a mod right now, I would kick Wayne a mile away

Its an unhealthy debate when he pulls that ****ing picture out again. one more time I will bend him over and ram it up his pretensous ass
 
Indeed, that is beyond the scope of this specific discussion though . . . I have no problem at all if any of my fellow forum members choose to spend a vast amount of money on any of their hardware but what I object too and will always object to is if they "scaremonger" people away from a more affordable option based on reasons that simply are not based in a shared reality . . .

If they do this for good reasons based on "Fact" then they should have no problem producing the "Facts" to backup what they are saying and everyone is happy . . . however if they do this for reasons that are not based on "Fact" and instead "Conjecture" or "Speculation" then that needs to be made abundantly clear . . .

You scare people off INTEL everyday based on conjecture and speculation. Not facts.

I come in and destroy your arguments with facts. And spec faster systems for the same cost in core i3 for example.

You then add me to ignore lists....Didums :D
 
Big.Wayne, why are you so bothered about what other people buy?

It's their money being spent, not yours so I don't see why you're so psyched up over 256 megs of ram on 1 gpu.

It's a case of horses for courses surely not?
 
Big.Wayne, why are you so bothered about what other people buy?

It's their money being spent, not yours so I don't see why you're so psyched up over 256 megs of ram on 1 gpu.

It's a case of horses for courses surely not?

Sophisticated trolling...

Boredom?

Being a student?

Unemployed?

Loads of time on his hands?

Lonely?

Sad?

Odd?

Who knows?

Who Cares
 
The problem is some people giving advice don't really appear to be in possession of many "facts" and are kinda twisting the information they give to the prospective buyer to suit their own perspective . . . i.e I deem I personally need a more expensive card for my own reasons and circumstances and therefore I deem you need a more expensive card based on my own reasons and circumstances?
sounds a lot like yourself , why are you still posting min/max graphs when we have already told you why they are worthless as a modern comparrison?

there was a time you were telling people buy yhe 768mb card even if you game at 1920x1080 are you still of this opinion?

the facts are simple.

buy the 768 if you game at 720p , if you however have a decent monitor and want 1920x1080 you will need a 1gb card.

if you want 2560 or whatever you will need a different card entirely because the 460 wont cut it
 
You sound really confident arknor. I'll remember this thread. If in 6 months time the difference between the 768 and 1gb models is still only a few % or so, I'll laugh my ass off (and bump this thread :p)
 
You sound really confident arknor. I'll remember this thread. If in 6 months time the difference between the 768 and 1gb models is still only a few % or so, I'll laugh my ass off (and bump this thread :p)

no one is arguing on min/max graphics its only a few percent we are arguing that a lot of games already using more than 768mb of memory when your gaming at 1920x1080/1900x1200 so you would either have to turn down settings , use no AA or both.
loads of crossfire benchmarks look great but the majority of people with a crossfire/sli setup will admit the micro suttters can be extremly annoying these are things you wont see on a min/max graph

one of the reviews bigwayne linked even stated in AVP they had to turn the resolution down on the 768mb card to get the game playable while the 1gb card was fine.

as i said
< 1920x1080 get 768
1920x1080 get 1GB
1920x1080 > get a different card because a 460 wont cut it at 2560x
 
This was posted on the 7th of september so i dont think the prices are going back up because the performance is so close to the 1gb version

http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showthread.php?t=18183592

they already went up gibbo posted about a page back

posted yesterday
Hi there

The 768MB is becoming harder to get, prices are increasing due to supply and demand and as such prices have gone up again this morning, until we can source a large volume at a low price this is what unfortunately happens. Prices don't always go down, they quite often go up, the I7 950 is another example of this. :(
 
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The comparative pricing between the 768 and 1GB was out of whack. The 768 was a bit too cheap and the 1GB was overpriced. There should be a £25 between them, £135 for 768 and £160 for 1GB sounds about right to me.
 
The comparative pricing between the 768 and 1GB was out of whack. The 768 was a bit too cheap and the 1GB was overpriced. There should be a £25 between them, £135 for 768 and £160 for 1GB sounds about right to me.

Then everyone in their right mind would just buy a 1GB version.

Everyone can muster up 25 quid in this price bracket.

If you can't then you save up until you do.
 
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