I don't really get Big Bang

SPG · 3 Jun 2021 at 13:44

The LHC was built for one question. A very very fundamental question. The existence of the Higs boson. The answer to this question would shape our thinking for decades oh and the possible did we build the machine correctly/good enough and it just so happens it's the most complex machinery humanity has ever built. It is this ages stone henge.

It's just so happens answering this question along the ways answers other questions and creates more it's called Science and the scientific method.

watercooledman · 3 Jun 2021 at 13:53

so is it like a puzzle then we have to complete

Raymond Lin · 3 Jun 2021 at 14:05

I can also picture it as people trying to guess the final score of a game, basing on the team's recent form, how good their players are on both sides, they are predicting what the score is going to be. It may be 2-1, it may be 3-4 or even 9-2. What it can't be is 120 - 22.

Except though, it's all fine if we are talking about the same sport (Football/soccer is you are American), you would be very close to the answer, but we don't even know what sport they are playing, we can't see, we are ~~assuming, guessing,~~ hypothesising they are playing the same sport as us. If they are not, like if it's Basketball they are playing, then the likelihood swings the other way.

We are using what we understand, to fit into something that may be completely different, with a different set of rules. Sure it's all played with a ball, we can confirm there is a ball, we may confirm that there is 1 ball, but it's a completely different game. It seems to me unless we can confirm that we are still talking about the same sport (or same universe), we can't be certain of our hypothesis, and therefore, it can be silly scoreline, a score line that isn't possible in our version of the game.

dlockers · 3 Jun 2021 at 14:08

SPG said:
The LHC was built for one question. A very very fundamental question. The existence of the Higs boson. The answer to this question would shape our thinking for decades oh and the possible did we build the machine correctly/good enough and it just so happens it's the most complex machinery humanity has ever built. It is this ages stone henge.

It's just so happens answering this question along the ways answers other questions and creates more it's called Science and the scientific method.

There is a dose of irony here that it was in search of the God particle :cry:

~>Dg<~ · 3 Jun 2021 at 21:14

the funny thing is you have to be normally one or the other religios or a scientist to present your idea or theory yet often they both interwine.

i actually think to fully understand the possibility of the big bang theory you dont sit on a side and actually embrace both. otherwise you cant be unbiased and shut off to possibilities.

even einstein says todays thinkers must be creative. just sitting on old theories or taking peoples work as gospel wont get un anywhere.

Penfold101 · 3 Jun 2021 at 21:31

~>Dg<~ said:
the funny thing is you have to be normally one or the other religios or a scientist to present your idea or theory yet often they both interwine.

i actually think to fully understand the possibility of the big bang theory you dont sit on a side and actually embrace both. otherwise you cant be unbiased and shut off to possibilities.

even einstein says todays thinkers must be creative. just sitting on old theories or taking peoples work as gospel wont get un anywhere.

Religion achieves nothing, especially in the realm of science and knowlege about the Universe. Everything they claim to know comes from a book written by goat herders who didn't know the earth revolved around the Sun, and is more concerned with what happens after we're dead than what happens in the only life we KNOW we're going to get.

I agree that progress requires new ideas and creative thinking, but nothing in science is taken as gospel (that's religion's job - never question anything) If you have evidence something is wrong, you present it and get others to challenge it - science is self-correcting.

Raymond Lin said:
Before we move on, would you like to pick a word?

You have corrected me on the word "guess", even though you have stated "simply we don't know", you have corrected me on the use of the word "theory". Would you like to pick a word before this happens for the 3rd time? Assumptions? No? Hypothesis? You seem to like that word, you've used it a few times, lets go with that. Unless you like to do this conversation in Chinese before another person accuse me of bad at communication?

Now that's over...if you state that "we don't know", and anyone who pretends to know is being "dishonest".

Can we then just leave it at that then because we are just hypothesising.

I apologise for concentrating on the lauguage used - it's one of the things that bugs me in this field when people talk about hypothesis, fact and theory etc, and the actual meaning of those terms in the context of science.. ie a theory is not just an idea, it is the pinacle of any subject to have theory surrounding it. Use of the word 'guess' bugs me even more as that definitely isn't waht they do in any way, but yes - let's leave the discussion on words there.

Raymond Lin said:
At best, it is that based on the current evidence, this is the best hypothesis you can put forward. Yet, it is still "we don't know" for sure, as you said.

For anything outside of this universe, I agree.

~>Dg<~ · 3 Jun 2021 at 21:50

well you say it achieves nothing but it provides the exact same thing as science does about the big bang. nothing concrete. just waffle.

Penfold101 · 3 Jun 2021 at 21:53

~>Dg<~ said:
well you say it achieves nothing but it provides the exact same thing as science does about the big bang. nothing concrete. just waffle.

Claiming that everything we know about the Big Bang is just waffle shows how little you have read about it, or you're just trolling at this point. Read a book, preferably a science book.

keyser · 3 Jun 2021 at 21:54

~>Dg<~ said:
well you say it achieves nothing but it provides the exact same thing as science does about the big bang. nothing concrete. just waffle.

Says the guy typing on a computer
"You're welcome" - Science.

~>Dg<~ · 3 Jun 2021 at 21:58

Penfold101 said:
Claiming that everything we know about the Big Bang is just waffle shows how little you have read about it, or you're just trolling at this point. Read a book, preferably a science book.

i actually know quite a lot about it. what i say is true. nobody actually knows anything really. einstein never put anything together searched all his life and stephen hawkin thought what einstein proposed was wrong and came up with a different theory working with Hertog. maybe have a read about it in a book.

Penfold101 · 3 Jun 2021 at 22:00

~>Dg<~ said:
i actually know quite a lot about it. what i say is true. nobody actually knows anything really. einstein never put anything together searched all his life and stephen hawkin thought what einstein proposed was wrong and came up with a different theory working with Hertog. maybe have a read about it in a book.

So you know quite a lot about it, but the scientists who wrote the books you got this from don't? Fascinating.

~>Dg<~ · 3 Jun 2021 at 22:02

Penfold101 said:
So you know quite a lot about it, but the scientists who wrote the books you got this from don't? Fascinating.

knowing about something or claming you do you provide proof. einstein nothing. hawkin and hertog. nothing. people just make up theories and try and get them to fit.

scientists dismiss religion but that offers you as much proof as science does on how we came to be big bang the whole package.

dlockers · 3 Jun 2021 at 22:03

keyser said:
Says the guy typing on a computer
"You're welcome" - Science.

How many big bangs to a Ghz? :confused:

Penfold101 · 3 Jun 2021 at 22:07

~>Dg<~ said:
knowing about something or claming you do you provide proof. einstein nothing. hawkin and hertog. nothing. people just make up theories and try and get them to fit.

scientists dismiss religion but that offers you as much proof as science does on how we came to be big bang the whole package.

Well, go and try out all the religions around the world and see which one is right. Better yet, start your own one - that's what the cool kids do.Let us know how you get on.

~>Dg<~ · 3 Jun 2021 at 22:08

Penfold101 said:
Well, go and try out all the religions around the world and see which one is right. Better yet, start your own one - that's what the cool kids do.Let us know how you get on.

no need to get funny because all im pointing out is its just theory ideas. nothing is proof. so its just the same as religion. without proof how can anyone say which is better ?

Penfold101 · 3 Jun 2021 at 22:12

~>Dg<~ said:
no need to get funny because all im pointing out is its just theory ideas. nothing is proof. so its just the same as religion. without proof how can anyone say which is better ?

The Big Bang Theory, like every theory in science, exists BECAUSE of proof. Theory does not mean 'guess'. Unless you're about to say that the Theory of Gravity is a guess as well?

~>Dg<~ · 3 Jun 2021 at 22:16

Penfold101 said:
The Big Bang Theory, like every theory in science, exists BECAUSE of proof. Theory does not mean 'guess'. Unless you're about to say that the Theory of Gravity is a guess as well?

no it exists because someone made a theory which people except to be truth. no proof. just it works for whats believed. its exactly the same as religion once you go down that route. if you believe in what you told. its just religion.

i-bert · 3 Jun 2021 at 22:32

~>Dg<~ said:
no it exists because someone made a theory which people except to be truth. no proof. just it works for whats believed. its exactly the same as religion once you go down that route. if you believe in what you told. its just religion.

It isn't though, because if civilization was wiped out and we started again, we would still get to the same theory we have now based on scientific evidence. Maybe this new civilization could say "God did it" again, but it's really not the same now, is it.

Murphy · 3 Jun 2021 at 23:42

~>Dg<~ said:
i actually know quite a lot about it. what i say is true. nobody actually knows anything really. einstein never put anything together searched all his life and stephen hawkin thought what einstein proposed was wrong and came up with a different theory working with Hertog. maybe have a read about it in a book.

So more than just waffle then. :rolleyes:

Like it or not a proposed theory is more than nothing, it's a reasoned, logical, proposition for how something possibly works based on current knowledge, a theory explains what we'd expect to see when empirical observations are made. Black holes were nothing more than a theory at one point in time and when it described them it allowed people to test the theory against actual observations, observations that eventually proved the theory to be correct.

Saying a theory is waffle or that the person who presents the theory doesn't actually know would be like saying weather forecasters are talking waffle or don't actually know what the weather is going to be. Sure they may not be a 100% accurate prediction of future events but they're a darn site better than peeing into the wind, and when they do get things wrong the model is refined so future predictions become ever more accurate.

Penfold101 · 4 Jun 2021 at 06:01

~>Dg<~ said:
no it exists because someone made a theory which people except to be truth. no proof. just it works for whats believed. its exactly the same as religion once you go down that route. if you believe in what you told. its just religion.

I considered posting a link to the Big Bang wikipedia page (although the first two links on google relate to the TV show, which is slightly concerning...) but I realised that you could have done this yourself at any point if you were genuinely interested, as it lists both the proofs and the current issues that are being worked on, so at this point you're either just trolling or willfully ignorant - neither of which I will entertain further.

Murphy said:
So more than just waffle then.

Like it or not a proposed theory is more than nothing, it's a reasoned, logical, proposition for how something possibly works based on current knowledge, a theory explains what we'd expect to see when empirical observations are made. Black holes were nothing more than a theory at one point in time and when it described them it allowed people to test the theory against actual observations, observations that eventually proved the theory to be correct.

Saying a theory is waffle or that the person who presents the theory doesn't actually know would be like saying weather forecasters are talking waffle or don't actually know what the weather is going to be. Sure they may not be a 100% accurate prediction of future events but they're a darn site better than peeing into the wind, and when they do get things wrong the model is refined so future predictions become ever more accurate.

It's actually even better than that - the scientific use of the word 'theory' is the pinnacle of achievement, it's what every hypothesis dreams of being. When enough of them are proven right and a large collection of facts are known about it (expansion, cosmic microwave backround etc) they are all grouped together as the Big Bang Theory. Gravitional theory describes all the facts we know about it, including what happens with Black Holes and how it distorts spacetime to create curvature etc.

In common parlance theory is used the same was as idea or guess, which I totally understand, but scientifically it's a bit different. I'm just saying this for interests sake more than anything - I totally agree with the meat and bones of your post.