I noticed intel have made lower end chips for 8th gen

[mistersprinkles]

To me what's crazy is wasting money on a quad core when you do nothing that requires one.
A 3.7GHz dual core with HT for £55 offers a lot of performance for a light user.

I totally see your point, but in terms of future proofing a machine and getting the most possible life out of it, if the price difference is like fifty pounds to extend the life of a machine several years, why not do it?

 

[DragonQ]

they have their use cases, i used a Pentium G4400 (7th gen) for £40 to upgrade a machine for someone plodding along on an old core2duo for web browsing, mobo/cpu/ram was £150 if ddr4 had sane pricing it would've been even less and it flys compared to the core2

I was looking at prices the other day actually for a simple browsing PC and it's nearly £200 just for the core components (Pentium G4560, cheapest motherboard, and 8 GiB of 2400 DDR4). AMD is even more since they don't have a (competitive) £50 APU. Might as well just get a much cheaper Raspberry Pi type platform and shove Ubuntu on it, or get an Intel NUC for about the same price.

 

[ExoMale]

they have their use cases, i used a Pentium G4400 (7th gen) for £40 to upgrade a machine for someone plodding along on an old core2duo for web browsing, mobo/cpu/ram was £150 if ddr4 had sane pricing it would've been even less and it flys compared to the core2

They do have their uses, I just think it’s a bit daft to start the new Range with a new i3 that’s now a quad the make the lesser models months after, I don’t need 4 cores most the time really I guess, but I would rather pay the small extra for the i3 over the pentium Range, the 8th gen boards are just not cheap enough to warrant the build cost, if they bring in the 110 sort of line then yeah sure, but compared to the older gens it just doesn’t make sense right now..

the skylake pentiums were just normal dual cores which made the i3 more apapealing because of the continued hyperthreading, but in kabylake they made the pentiums nearly i3 performance with adding the hyperthreading, just different clocks mainly, so the i3 models seemed pointless unless you wanted to brag you have an i3 and both 1151 versions had the 110 range which no board cost more than £60, the new coffelake i3 is basically the i5 replacement with its 4 cores trending because the new i5 is now 6 core.

 

[smilingcrow]

I totally see your point, but in terms of future proofing a machine and getting the most possible life out of it, if the price difference is like fifty pounds to extend the life of a machine several years, why not do it?

In a socketed system you can always upgrade the CPU in the future if you need to so it's already future proofed in that sense.

 

[mistersprinkles]

In a socketed system you can always upgrade the CPU in the future if you need to so it's already future proofed in that sense.

Yes, but if I buy a 50 pound CPU, then I upgrade to a 120 pound CPU, I've spent 170 pounds. If I get the 120 pound CPU in the first place, I've spent 120 pounds.

Upgrading later is almost always more expensive than buying the decent thing in the first place.

Always buy a bit more than what you need so it lasts IMO. JM2C. HTH.

 

[GWANGY]

Amd has a very competitive apu at aroubd £73 .. someone could even play a little fortnite or older games , which is vastly more than can be said for the intel low-end (and high end) chips. I am quite tempted to go cheap at first then upgrade later, but it is really a false economy.

 

[chrcoluk]

By the time you take out Intel's shipping costs, retailers and suppliers margins there isn't much money to Intel on £40 - £50 CPU's, a wild guess maybe £15 to £20? But because they cost nothing a lot of people buy them, i don't think Intel are losing any money on them but i also don't think they are making any, they keep up Intel's market share, so Intel can say "we are the market leaders" that in PR is worth more than selling fewer for more money but making a profit off them.

Another consideration is binning.

My G4500 or whatever it is is probably a reject part for a higher priced chip.

So when you look at it that way they making money of a part that otherwise would go in a trash bin.

 

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

For general purpose tasks and light gaming with a dGPU something like a Pentium G5400 will still be a solid choice for £55. Having said that for another £25 to £30 you can get a Ryzen 3 2200G,which also has a very solid IGP for light gaming,so there are some good options for under £100 now.

 

[voidshatter]

I like the look of the i5 8400t ( vs r5 1600 35w part mia )

I like the look of the i7 8700T. I'm always fond of such lower power consumption CPUs for mini-ITX cases such like DAN Cases SFX-A4. According to my tests, you can't just undervolt the K version to achieve the same stability at lower frequencies. These T chips are cherry picked on the other side of the voltage curve. For overclockers these might be junk silicon, but for a minority group of people maniac in the limited cooling area these are gems.

 

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

The Dan Case A4 SFX does not need very low power CPUs just not the overvolted K series ones,as most people are running normal 65W desktop ones in it and as such something like a 65W TDP Core i7 8700 will be fine,and the lower wattage models,will probably not be worth it,as realworld clockspeeds will be compromised,and that will affect gaming. As result it would make more sense to use a 65W TDP 4C/8T Core i7 or a 6C/6T CPU,as these would perform better in gaming due to higher clockspeeds.

It was designed by enthusiasts for enthusiasts and the dGPU is easily going to be the part which consumes the most power and produce the most heat.

But considering in my Shuttle SFF systems I was running overclocked high VID Q6600 chips,overclocked 8800GTS 512MB/HD5850 1GB cards,etc many of the modern parts are much better in that regard. I am even running a GTX1080FE fine in my current SFF system.

 

[voidshatter]

The Dan Case A4 SFX does not need very low power CPUs,as most people are running normal desktop ones in it and as such something like a 65W TDP Core i7 8700 will be fine,and the lower wattage models,will probably not be worth it,as realworld clockspeeds will be compromised,and as result it would make more sense to use a 4C/8T Core i7 or a 6C/6T CPU,as these would perform better in gaming.

The DAN Cases A4-SFX is compatible with cooler no taller than 48mm, and the most popular pick of cooler is the Noctua L9i. The non-T versions will possibly result in a bit higher fps in games in the short run, but those non-T versions will not have the extremely low voltage curve. It is known that for cooling-limited computers, undervolting with lower clocks can gain better performance in sustained stress tests such like repeated Cinebench. In such case, the T-versions come with very low voltage out of factory, which is ideal for such stress tests (probably a bit unrealistic for gaming).

 

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

The DAN Cases A4-SFX is compatible with cooler no taller than 48mm, and the most popular pick of cooler is the Noctua L9i. The non-T versions will possibly result in a bit higher fps in games in the short run, but those non-T versions will not have the extremely low voltage curve. It is known that for cooling-limited computers, undervolting with lower clocks can gain better performance in sustained stress tests such like repeated Cinebench. In such case, the T-versions come with very low voltage out of factory, which is ideal for such stress tests (probably a bit unrealistic for gaming).

I have had nothing but SFF systems since 2005,and I have built tons of systems with all manner of cases(and so have my mates) even in things like ammo boxes,etc with discrete cards. Those 65W TDP CPUs will be fine,especially since Intel lumps a whole lot of SKUs into that rating with a big variance,and you can undervolt any of these CPUs if it worries you that much. The T series CPUs tend to be more hard limited by their TDPs,so I am not fan of them for desktop gaming builds,so even if they boost quite highly they mostly will hit their limits over time and underclock themselves even if the cooling is enough.

The graphics card consumes far more power,and produces more heat and in the end if you end up too neurotic you might as well not bother and get some gaming laptop,especially when those T series CPUs which are generally harder to get around the world. So you worry,and the rest of us will continue doing the builds and being generally fine!

We can agree to disagree on that. Each to their own and all that!

 

[voidshatter]

I have had nothing but SFF systems since 2005,and I have built tons of systems with all manner of cases(and so have my mates) even in things like ammo boxes,etc with discrete cards. Those 65W TDP CPUs will be fine,especially since Intel lumps a whole lot of SKUs into that rating with a big variance,and you can undervolt any of these CPUs if it worries you that much.

The graphics card consumes far more power,and produces more heat and in the end if you end up that neurotic you might as well not bother,especially when those T series CPUs which are generally harder to get. So you worry,and the rest of us will continue doing the builds and being fine!

In my Lian-Li Q21 case, nothing beats a 7700T in terms of quad-core Linpack performance (LinX 0.6.5 GFlops). I have tried all sorts of undervolting with a 6700K and it did not even get close. Unless the non-T version has a much better voltage curve than the K-version, I see little chance for the non-T version to come close. I will need to find the scattered screenshots of LinX runs.

 

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

In my Lian-Li Q21 case, nothing beats a 7700T in terms of quad-core Linpack performance (LinX 0.6.5 GFlops). I have tried all sorts of undervolting with a 6700K and it did not even get close. Unless the non-T version has a much better voltage curve than the K-version, I see little chance for the non-T version to come close. I will need to find the scattered screenshots of LinX runs.

Plenty of people are running 65W TDP CPUs fine in the Dan Case AF SFX especially since most people are not running stability tests all the time and are gaming or running lightly threaded loads. I have a Xeon E3 in my system,and I am yet to see any realworld load I run to be as bad as LinX,IBT,Prime or OCCT,etc. Its like try to use Furmark as a benchmark for graphics cards.

Looking at the Q21 it is simply is a worse system for cooling(considering that the PSU is even blocking airflow on the CPU cooler which does not happen in the A4 SFX),especially when you look at the cards used in the AF SFX with no issue which produce way more heat. So stop scare mongering people away from using them,when people are fine - it was designed for enthusiast usage,and half those Lian Li systems were designed to look nice with thermals second.

Edit!!

Also try looking for a Core i7 8700T,at any UK retailer. Yeah,its not available,or even listed at multiple retailers in the country. Plus even the resale value of the T series is worse when you want to upgrade. So what are people going to do?? Not bother using CFL in a A4 SFX build??

If you are running a Z series board you can tinker massively with clockspeeds,TDP,voltage,etc anyway.What do you think people did in the past with SFF systems??

So,we can agree to disagree on this and leave it at that. Its way too nice outside,for me to be bothered now.

 

[voidshatter]

Plenty of people are running 65W TDP CPUs fine in the Dan Case AF SFX,and looking at the Q21 it is simply is a worse system for cooling(considering that the PSU is even blocking airflow on the CPU cooler which does not happen in the A4 SFX),especially when you look at the cards used in the AF SFX with no issue. So stop scare mongering people away from using them,when people are fine - it was designed for enthusiast usage.

6-core Coffee Lake is still 14nm (or ++ or whatever) which is most likely identical or close to fab process as late Kaby Lake's. This means under full stress the 8700T will likely draw about the same power as 7700 (non-T) does.

Unless you can post a screenshot to prove that a 8700 (non-T) doesn't get throttling with LinX 0.6.5 with 6 threads (NOT 12 threads) in a small case like DAN Cases SFX-A4, I'm not buying into it.

Edit:

Just ran LinX again on 7700T and got 192 GFlops (with meltdown & spectre patches and lots of background applications running, without delidding). I don't even believe that 7700 (non-T) can run this at 1.088V.

 

[voidshatter]

Also try looking for a Core i7 8700T,at any UK retailer. Yeah,its not available,or even listed at multiple retailers in the country.

So,we can agree to disagree on this and leave it at that. Its why too nice outside,for me to be bothered.

Historically these T versions always hit the market weeks later than announcements. This is the only concern for me. I don't really mind these being more expensive than the non-T versions.

 

[voidshatter]

I am yet to see any realworld load I run to be as bad as LinX or OCCT,etc. Its like try to use Furmark as a benchmark for graphics cards.

I have already stated this in my previous posts, and I agree that current real games will unlikely be able to fully stress the CPU like this, which means the non-T versions can perform a tad better in games. That difference for me does not justify the throttling when I do other stuff to fully stress the CPU (nowadays video transcoding, or future games, who knows).

If you are running a Z series board you can tinker massively with clockspeeds,TDP,voltage,etc anyway.

Yes you can, but the K/non-T version will unlikely have the cherry picked extremely low voltage curve. When I try to undervolt the K version, the K version always had higher stable voltage for a certain low clock, or lower stable clock for a certain voltage. I'm not sure how much you can customise with a non-T version with the Z170, but unless you can prove to me that the non-T version has the same extremely low voltage curve as T does, those tweaking wouldn't get you maximum LinX GFlops numbers.