I think I need to change my weight routine...
- Thread starter UnknownSoldier
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Soldato
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What are your goals? (It's hard to tell from your routine)wintereverlong said:What would you suggest?
How old are you?
What other sports do you do?
What are your stats at the moment?
How often would you like to train?
Do you have any previous injuries or medical conditions?
What sort of gym do you go to?
What is diet like?
Skunkworks said:
Where have I said otherwise? I agree 100% with that. However splits like those above do require 5-7 days rest between bodyparts because each workout they are frying their CNS.
Skunkworks said:
The argument isn't about which type of training is the most effecient. In fact for "pure mass" I agree that for a lot of people a low volume 5x5 workout 3 times per week gets faster results. The debate was about whether they are overtraining on those splits or not. By giving each bodypart 5-7 days rest they are preventing themselves from overtraining on those splits. With less exercises per bodypart they wouldn't be frying their CNS as much and would be able to hit each bodyparts more often than once a week. As to whether that is better or not is dependent largely on the individual.
Skunkworks said:
Sorry you're wrong. I gained around 10 lb's on a 3day split when I first started lifting (definately beginners gains as a didn't have a clue back then). Then I Began a 3 time per week full body 5x5 workout and gained another 15 or so. Then changed it up again and went to a 4 day split which netted me another 20 lb's. Went to a slight variation of the 5x5 routine again and gained another 10 lb's, then finally I went to a low volume five day split hitting most body parts twice per week which gave me another 10 lb's or so. I am now maintaining my current weight as I have achieved every goal I set for myself.
Skunkworks - If you had come in here and said, you would probably gain mass faster on a low volume, 2x -3x per week compound only routine then I would probably be in agreement with you. But to say that those routines are "the worst case of overtraining you have ever seen" is quite frankly absurd.
I personally think a 3 day split as long as it is based around compound lifts with a little isolation is perfect for a beginner.
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GordyR said:
I'm right behind Gordy on this one. The routines mentioned at the beginning of the thread are not my cup of tea, but not terrible by any stretch of the imagination. You've just come across as very arrogant, and unwilling to listen. Unlike Gordy i've not got the patience to talk to someone like that.
Soldato
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This is why I don't often bother giving advice on this subject. There's always someone with a higher postcount who shouts louder, and has their fanclub of equally ill-informed followers.
The fact that GordyR doesn't think that 3 compounds and an iso in the same session isn't over training just makes me shudder. To be honest, the two routines I commented on are just injury magnets.
Does sounding arrogant automatically make me wrong? Does not wording something in a way you find appealing automatically make me wrong? The answer to both is no.
If I come across as curt it’s because I see this situation far too much, and have been on the wrong end of poor Ill-informed experts many years ago when I started training.
Like I said, I cannot really be bothered with this, so I’ll leave it at that.
Good luck with your training.
The fact that GordyR doesn't think that 3 compounds and an iso in the same session isn't over training just makes me shudder. To be honest, the two routines I commented on are just injury magnets.
Does sounding arrogant automatically make me wrong? Does not wording something in a way you find appealing automatically make me wrong? The answer to both is no.
If I come across as curt it’s because I see this situation far too much, and have been on the wrong end of poor Ill-informed experts many years ago when I started training.
Like I said, I cannot really be bothered with this, so I’ll leave it at that.
Good luck with your training.
i partially agree with skunkworks, that wintereverlong's routine is too much, but it depends on how long he has been working out, and if he knows his limits etc.
if he has been working out for at least 6-12 months, and knows his limits and which muscles he needs to hit harder, then Gordy is right
if not, ie. less then at least 6 months, and hasnt built a lot of mass, then it definately is too much (i was making the same mistake until last week)
if he has been working out for at least 6-12 months, and knows his limits and which muscles he needs to hit harder, then Gordy is right
if not, ie. less then at least 6 months, and hasnt built a lot of mass, then it definately is too much (i was making the same mistake until last week)
Skunkworks said:
So, just as an example you'd say:
Chins
Deadlifts
Bentover rows
Rear delt raises
Would be a bad thing? 3 compounds + 1 iso. Hmm, gonna have to disagree with you there. Back this up with some research etc.. and i'll be more than happy to be proven wrong. Also not sure why training this way makes the routines "injury magnets".
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3 compounds and iso for the same muscle group, as detailed in both the above routines that I commented on.ethos said:
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No probs.ethos said:Ok, might of taken that a bit out of context then. Out of interest lets see a Skunkworks routine to compare
From my post above:DISCLAIMERSkunkworks said:
Bear in mind this is all-round beginners routine that has been put together without assessing the individual in person. This is based around what most non-sporting lifters want to achieve, which is a balance of size strength and aesthetics. This is totally generic and would have to be re-assessed after 2-3 months of training.
Soldato
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Check out the routine I posted above. How much of that can you do with the weights you use? I can suggest alternatives for the home users.wintereverlong said:I've been doing weights for around 4 months. I did have some knowledge beforehand but nothing regarding diet. I have added mass, but up until recently my workouts were mostly based around isolation exercises. I know my limits and have never had an injury and I don't have any medical conditions (in response to Skunkworks). I'm still a beginner and I read a lot of articles and ask for advice when needed. GordyR has been brilliant not just with me but with a lot of people in the same position as me.
I do not attend a gym so I'm quite limited to what exercises I can do. The one I had up above (I've taken it off for now to reassess) is a new one, that I've only been doing for the last week or so. I'm still testing myself to see what I'm capable of and working out what exercises suit me the most. I don't think in the last four months that I've kept the same workout regime for more than 2 weeks. I'm constantly trying new exercises and removing ones from my set regime.
Any advice is welcome, nothing is set in stone. I don't kid myself that I'm an expert and appreciate help when it's offered.
Yep i was the same, been working out for about 3 months, doing lots of different exercise, always chopping and changing, was doing a total of 23 exercise each weekwintereverlong said:
Did a lot of research last week or so, and this is gona be my new routine from MondayMonday
Flat / incline Bench Press
Dips
BB or DB Standing / Seated Military Press
Skull Crushers / DB seated tricep press
Wednesday
BB Deadlift
Wide Grip Chins
Bent over DB / BB Rows
BB / DB Curls
Friday
BB Back Squat
BB Stiff Legged Deadlift
Calf Raises
Ab Work
Skunkworks said:
There are people on this board with excellent knowledge of lifting, Gordy being one of them (Who judging from your post's I assume you are mainly referring too). He may have a small fanclub, however thats because the information he has provided on here has worked for those that have undertaken it.
Training is all relative to what people want to achieve and what type of person they are. I have used many different routines (As have many of the more knowledgeable posters on here, and you yourself I'm sure, have), including one which involved doing Power Cleans, Squats and Bench (all 5x5) in the same session, three times a week. While some would consider this over-training, and I would not recommend it for all people, over the 6 week cycle I was on this routine I achieved fantastic gains, particularly in the strength area.
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BOOYA! Much better!A2Z said:Yep i was the same, been working out for about 3 months, doing lots of different exercise, always chopping and changing, was doing a total of 23 exercise each week
Monday
Flat / incline Bench Press
Dips
BB or DB Standing / Seated Military Press
Skull Crushers / DB seated tricep press
Wednesday
BB Deadlift
Wide Grip Chins
Bent over DB / BB Rows
BB / DB Curls
Friday
BB Back Squat
BB Stiff Legged Deadlift
Calf Raises
Ab Work
That's a very good and balance routine. What kind of set/rep numbers are you thinking of?
Skunkworks said:
Jeez, don't resort to using that excuse mate. With all due respect I think you have completely the wrong idea.
Skunkworks said:
For starters wintereverlong is only doing 6 sets of compounds and 3 sets of isolation for his chest with the isos being flyes which doing little more than give your muscle fascia a good stretch. If I remember correctly he is doing his dips palm back on a bench/chair with feet on the ground and that will be hitting his triceps far more than his chest. Even if he was doing parallel bar dips while leaning forward that would still only make it 9 sets of compounds once per week and that is still not overtraining. Though I would certainly urge him to drop a few sets. You cannot seem to grasp the fact that these types of routines are higher in volume than 2x or 3x per week routines for a specific reason. That reason being that you are only training that bodypart once per week. If that makes you shudder then you are extremely ill informed. Have you actually ever trained with any natural competing bodybuilders? I have and I think you would be shocked just how much volume they do. Funnily enough most of them use a 4 day split. with 9-12 sets per large muscle group per week. Are they overtraining too?
I actually have a routine laying around on my computer of an EFBB competitor. If you would like me to post it just ask.
Skunkworks said:
Huh? Who said anything about you sounding arrogant or wording something wrong? There is no need to be so defensive. I certainly haven't disagreed with any of your advice thus far.
Skunkworks said:
No one has criticised your advice. In fact your advice has been very good. All with the exception of your "horrific overtraining" comments. It quite simply is not horrific overtraining and that is the only thing I am disputing.
Skunkworks said:
Fair play.
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Soldato
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GordyR, maybe we got off on the wrong foot due to the terminology I used when describing over training. Maybe “horrifically” was a little strong, but it was certainly far from ideal. Even at low weight/high volume the results would not be worth the time and effort.
Skunkworks said:
Fair enough mate. The stupid thing is I actually agree with you that it isn't ideal. I guess the horrific overtraining comment just got my back up since very similar (albeit better overall) routines have been used by a couple of my competing friends for years with great success. As well as myself.
Most of the more experienced lifters here have tried a variety of routines in the past, and I for one like to change things up considerably every 6-8 weeks. Though I advocate a 3 day split for beginners, looking back on my gains to date, for putting on overall mass the fastest I will always recommend a variation on bill starr's 5x5. The actual routine I followed is described in detail here.
http://www.geocities.com/elitemadcow1/table_of_contents_thread.htm#PART I: The Program
This gave me the most lean mass in the shortest period of time. However I only ever recommend this routine to those who have a reasonable idea of what they are capable of and already know their 5 rep max. But that is down to personal opinion. If you haven't tried this routine before I think you will like it.
However the one thing I will add to this is that although I gained a considerable amount of overall mass it did leave me with certain lagging bodyparts, maybe just down to genetics but who knows. It took a little isolation work to get them to catch up, no big deal. As everyone knows compounds are where we get most of our growth but to bring out those peaks on the smallers muscles a little isolation work can go a long way despite what anyone says.
Anyway, the way I look at it there is no right or wrong way of training (to an extent). I know people who have made simply awesome gains on 3-4 day splits very similar to those mentioned in this thread. I also know people who have failed abysmally, then switched to the 5x5 routine I linked to above and ballooned.... And vice versa. Everyone is different. People recover at different rates, hell some even respond amazingly to throwing pink dumbells around while wearing headbands and an ipod! The point is you need to learn what you respond to best yourself.
Assuming I was on gear I could start training with good old Mr. Shwarzeneggers routine (which almost everyone would consider overtraining) but that doesn't mean it would work for me.
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Skunkworks said:
Injury magnet? I have been weightlifting with a similar routines for 3 years and I have never been injured. Personally I am going to try this 5x5 routine, it sound pretty hardcorse though....
Soldato
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Your Day 2 puts a great deal of strain on the rotator cuffs and connective tissue. It's not just the muscle you have to think about.UnknownSoldier said:
That would be much better. Just make sure you get your form spot on before going too heavy.UnknownSoldier said:
EDIT: If you have a camera phone try and film yourself. You'll get a much better picture of your form than if you were just using mirrors.
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