Impact on temp - voltage vs. clock

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Right, quick query time. I recently (rather rashly, and due to browsing the MM after drinking all afternoon at a BBQ) "upgraded" my 1.3125 vid Q6600 to a 1.2125 one (cost me £30 net, but I was drunk...).

Anyway... comparing my clocking records (yes, I keep records, and? :)), I notice that I'm getting similar temps with my new chip at 3.5GHz and 1.3625 vcore (BIOS) to what I was previously getting at 3.33GHz and 1.4225 vcore (core temps 38C above system vs. 39C):

3.5GHz, 1.3625 vcore
Cores: 71
PWM: 74
System: 33 (damn this hot weather!)

3.33GHz, 1.4225 vcore
Cores: 67
PWM: 78
System: 28

(temps under 10 runs maximum IBT)

Now, I thought that voltage had a much bigger effect on temperatures than clock speed, and that thus using a considerably lower vcore would give me lower temps. Was I wrong? Is this what people would expect, or is it possible that I've somehow done a bad installation of my Megahalems this time around?
 
Well, that would tell me that lower vcore at the same clock would give lower temperatures, I suppose, but I would expect that anyway. Beyond that it would require some calculations to determine the relative effects, and my brain doesn't feel up to such things after a day of drinking in the sunshine.

I mean I could set the voltage and clock both to the same as with my previous chip to rule out a HSF seating or TIM problem, but basically, I'm just interested to know the general consensus: what are the relative effects of voltage versus clock speed on temps when overclocking. Seems that would be a useful thing to know. For me anyway, since I'm clearly a bit of a dunce in this area.
 
I've found that clock speed has the greatest effect on temps, but at the same clocks, voltage made a significant difference. As you raise clocks, you raise temps, which creates a need for greater voltages, which gives higher temps etc. The higher you go, the harder it is to push much further. I'd be happy with the temps you've achieved considering you've bumped your clocks up quite a bit. I get a 10C drop between 4.5 and 4.25 on my chip, if that gives you an indication of what clock speed changes can do.
 
Only compare the system and PWM chips temperatures as the sensors are the same. The new chip comes with new onboard temp sensors and cannot be directly compared. The real test is how stability is effected i.e. overclocking.

On increasing the voltage there was an equation where sometime like heat in watts is squared (heat^2). Considering that - might be worth reseating the cooler. edit, but u have high clock speed so it would be less likely a bad installation of cooler.
 
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Hi strumpusplunket,

It has been observed by a few forum members that LGA775 chips tend to run hotter the lower the [VID] gets . . . . this theory seems counter-intuitive as one would expect the processor with the lower [VID] to run cooler as it's using less voltage however this doesn't seem to be the case . . . at least that's how it appears, especially once the vCore starts getting ramped . . . .

I've observed this scenario personally after swapping out a E8400 for another E8400 that featured a lower [VID] . . . yes the second chip did indeed need a lot less vCore than the first to reach the same clocks but the temps were way higher, particularly with a decent overclock in place! :eek:

So with all this in mind it seems that for people running half-decent air-cooling a higher [VID] chip is indeed preferable to help keep the temps reasonable while its overclocked . . . . the lower [VID] chip will almost certainly yeild a better overclock however one will likely need some premium water-cooling to keep the temps in check! :cool:
 
Ah. Some really useful information here, particularly from Big Wayne. Thanks everyone.

It's good to know that as it's just been bugging me. I still think I have a little bit of room with core temps, as I tend to have 75C-ish in mind as max for cores under IBT for a Q6600 (given that nothing else I run will come within 10C of that at any time).

I was equally surprised by the PWM temps, though. Since they have less voltage running through them, I expected them to be a lot lower, but they're almost as high even with the vcore difference. This concerns me a bit more, actually, since my ceiling has always been determined by PWM rather than core temps on this board. Surely the difference in VID wouldn't affect that, would it?
 
Hi strumpusplunket,

It has been observed by a few forum members that LGA775 chips tend to run hotter the lower the [VID] gets . . . . this theory seems counter-intuitive as one would expect the processor with the lower [VID] to run cooler as it's using less voltage however this doesn't seem to be the case . . . at least that's how it appears, especially once the vCore starts getting ramped . . . .

I've observed this scenario personally after swapping out a E8400 for another E8400 that featured a lower [VID] . . . yes the second chip did indeed need a lot less vCore than the first to reach the same clocks but the temps were way higher, particularly with a decent overclock in place! :eek:

So with all this in mind it seems that for people running half-decent air-cooling a higher [VID] chip is indeed preferable to help keep the temps reasonable while its overclocked . . . . the lower [VID] chip will almost certainly yeild a better overclock however one will likely need some premium water-cooling to keep the temps in check! :cool:


Noticed the same. Q6600 @ 1.25 VID vs 1.325V VID both @ 3.4ghz 1.36v with TRUE - the lower VID is currently hitting 77C tops on IBT while the higher one is 71C. Indentical builds as well.
 
(damn this hot weather!)

You answered your own question. 4c higher cpu temp, but system temps were 5c higher. You say you checked logs, so you weren't running these tests on the same day.

My 3.25 6600 vid chip was just managing 3.5ghz during winter. Its now 3.35.

You could test BWs theory easily enough with a wattage meter if you still had the two chips. I dont believe you would have seen any difference.
 
the lower [VID] chip will almost certainly yeild a better overclock however one will likely need some premium water-cooling to keep the temps in check! :cool:

I have had 3 Q6600 chips. The first was a 1.35vid chip, it reached 3.2ghz on my H50 cooling setup but couldnt keep it stable at 3.4ghz. I then got a Lapped 1.3125vid chip, that I am using now. It is fully stable at 3.6ghz and will boot but is not prime stable at 3.7ghz. I run 1.625volts through it in bios (1.48 under load due to vdroop) which gives around 67c max temps with prime95 and around 34c idle

A couple of days ago I bought a 1.265vid chip. I am going to leave my temps the same and try for 3.7ghz. Do you think this chip will allow be a better overclock, less volts for the clock or do you think my H50 will not be up to the task? (radiator is cooled with 2 noctua P12 fans)
 
I'm getting similar temps with my new chip at 3.5GHz and 1.3625 vcore (BIOS) to what I was previously getting at 3.33GHz and 1.4225 vcore (core temps 38C above system vs. 39C)


You answered your own question. 4c higher cpu temp, but system temps were 5c higher. You say you checked logs, so you weren't running these tests on the same day.

No, I didn't. ;)

I accounted for the ambient difference based on my system temperature readings.

It was the fact that the delta temps were within 1C of each other despite the large difference in vcore that surprised me. Also the higher than expected PWM temps gave me some concern - again, delta temps, not absolute (I know absolute temps are not comparable across different test conditions).
 
You could test BWs theory easily enough with a wattage meter if you still had the two chips. I dont believe you would have seen any difference.
Hey JTrickle, just like to say it's not my theory but rather a OcUK group effort, I always noticed how the temps of different chips varied wildly under load but without very controlled experiments in a lab with fixed ambient temps it would be hard to actually prove . . .

In the past people have nearly always "lusted" after a low [VID] processor based on the premise they are superior, lots of people have expressed great disappointment because the chip they purchased is 1.300 [VID] and they wanted a 1.200 [VID] chip . . . if this low [VID]-Hot Running Theory turns out to be true then we may see high [VID] chips becoming more popular! :p

A couple of days ago I bought a 1.265vid chip. I am going to leave my temps the same and try for 3.7ghz. Do you think this chip will allow be a better overclock, less volts for the clock or do you think my H50 will not be up to the task?
I really don't know for sure but I expect if you conduct your experiment under controlled conditions you may get some interesting results! :) . . . I've only had limited experience myself so nothing conclusive here but I would say a low [VID] chip will almost certainly run a given clock at a lesser voltage than a high [VID] chip but due to the *possible* thermal issues we discussed it may not be possible to get a higher overclock due to the load temps racing up to 100°C :D

If anyone has gotten [Higher] temps with a higher [VID] chip then the Theory goes out the Window! :cool:
 
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Hey JTrickle, just like to say it's not my theory but rather a OcUK group effort, I always noticed how the temps of different chips varied wildly under load but without very controlled experiments in a lab with fixed ambient temps it would be hard to actually prove . . .

Its not as if your theory doesnt have confirmed precedent. They say that the I7 C0s draw possibly more power than C0s, but using more Amps, not Volts. Lots of people backing that up too.

To answer strumpusplunket above. Again, your results just look normal to me. Bit higher revs on the chip with lower volts could explain half the difference, system temps a bit higher because of that too. But then again, perhaps its just all down to how air was moving through your room/case that day.

Id suggest getting a wattage meter. They make it easy to track power changes your make. Heat not quite the same as power used, I know, but its all under the same banner.
 
To answer strumpusplunket above. Again, your results just look normal to me. Bit higher revs on the chip with lower volts could explain half the difference, system temps a bit higher because of that too. But then again, perhaps its just all down to how air was moving through your room/case that day.

Id suggest getting a wattage meter. They make it easy to track power changes your make. Heat not quite the same as power used, I know, but its all under the same banner.

It's exactly this that surprises me. I mean, it's clear that you're right - they are normal based on what you and other people have said. Just shows how off my intuition was about how my temperature curve would pan out on this new CPU.

Still... live and learn, I guess. :)
 
Fornowagain produced the following formula for wattage scaling with frequency/voltage a while back. It's approximate but seems valid.

Intel publish a TDP value, in Watts. This is a worst case scenario for heat generation for the benefit of people designing cooling systems. Assuming that all the power going into a chip is lost as heat (reasonable), this value gives you the worst case power consumption. It's 95W for the Q6600 G0 stepping.

Power consumption scales linearly with frequency. This is intuitively reasonable, if you double the frequency it'll solve your equation in half the time, but it's still doing the same number of operations so total energy used should be constant. Power is energy / time, hence doubling frequency doubles power consumption.

Voltage increases exert a greater effect. Higher voltage means more energy is pushed into the cpu, so more heat is generated directly. As a second effect, more current flows through and this also generates more heat. For constant resistance power is proportional to voltage squared. A cpu isn't ohmic, but lets assume it's close enough for engineering purposes.

This yields, as quoted by Fornowagain,
Power ~= TDP x (Voltage / stock voltage)^2 x (Frequency / stock frequency)

**** end maths ****

A couple of results from this. It's possible to overclock without using more power, but only if you undervolt at the same time. It also offers a reason why lower Vid chips can run hotter.

Overclockers tend to take the maximum voltage from the stock range as the "safe limit". In the case of the Q6600 under discussion, this is 1.5V. Assuming that all processors, whatever their vid, have the same TDP value is probably naive but the best option available.

I believe Q6600's tend to top out around 3.8GHz so I'll use that for my example. A very low vid would be 1.1V, a "bad" one 1.4V.

Power(1.1V vid) ~= 95*(1.5/1.1)^2*(3.8/2.4) = 280W
Power(1.4V vid) ~= 95*(1.5/1.4)^2*(3.8/2.4) = 173W

So here, the high vid chip is estimated to use about 100W less than the low vid one.


I personally believe the issue here is people taking intel's maximum vid, or the communities advice (hopefully features temperature), as the safe voltage. As such a low vid has a greater voltage increase available before hitting the limit, and will tend to clock further as a result. There's precious little sense behind this though, as there's no reason to believe that a voltage that is safe at stock remains safe when running a higher frequency and indeed higher temperature. There's no reason to believe processors of a given batch are identical to each other either.

**** sidenote ****

May I suggest the alternative method, which I came across a couple of years ago when looking into the theory behind overclocking. To be combined with raising voltages only as required, and spending time minimising all those that one can which is good practice anyway. In general I'm considering vcore here, though it wouldn't be unreasonable to do it with qpi/analogues as well.

1/ Determine lowest voltage processor requires to run stably, under your chosen cooling system, at stock speeds (or less if you want to be really thorough)
2/ Write down the frequency and voltage(s)
3/ Increase frequency a bit, test as normal to determine the new required voltage(s)
4/ Write these down too
5/ Continue in this fashion, plotting the numbers as you go.

The relation is likely to be linear for quite a while, then hit diminishing returns where you need greater and greater voltages for the extra few MHz. The "safe" voltages for your system can be taken as the values around the linear-curved transition. Pick an aesthetically pleasing clockspeed around there and be content.

If you don't do the undervolting bit you'll loose a good part of the linear relationship to a flat line, which will make it difficult to see where the linear behaviour stops. Likewise, the smaller the frequency steps the better the graph you'll produce, but the longer it'll take.

edit: Forgot this was about temperature, not wattage. Heatsinks tend to develop a temperature gradient proportional to the wattage moving through them, with one end fixed near room temp. Increasing room temp by X degrees tends to increase processor temperature by X degrees as well. To decrease the difference between room/water temp and processor temp you need to decrease the processor wattage or improve the heatsink (say by a better fan). It's possible to estimate heatsink/radiator performance, but anything more complex than a constant K/W gets messy quite fast. Voltage/clock directly affect wattage, calculating temperature from known wattage is rather more difficult than the above.
 
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Wow. What a detailed and informative post!

Thanks!

I pretty much have all that data for both chips, but in a fairly limited range and without the undervolting bit. It never occurred to me to plot them on a graph, though. Might give that a go, see what it spits out...
 
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