Investment banking or actuarial/decision help

[TNGL]

I wouldn't mind hearing a few opinions from those who have exposure to either areas or advice in general...

I'm currently in my second year of my Actuarial Science degree so I've obviously had an interest in the actuarial world for quite some time, more so in pensions and GI, to be exact. However, I've had an interest in the markets for a while as well, but this has always been outweighed by ActSci.

Cut a long story short, I've been applying for internships with the good old strategy of throwing enough **** at a wall until something sticks. This has worked and I now have an internship offer with one of the largest IBs in the world, however, I still have a few actuarial internship applications that I'm waiting to here more from (ie waiting to have my applications progressed to the next stage or binned).

Do I take the IB internship offer and withdraw from the actuarial ones I still have open? Or do I hold out for an actuarial internship which I'd probably have more of an interest in? The major plus for the IB internship is the pay, it's the equivalent of just under £52k p.a for, which actuarial intern pay doesn't come near to.

I'm placing a lot of emphasis on the decision because the chances are (as long as I don't mess up and succeed in playing my cards right) I'll be made an offer for a grad role at the end of the internship which I'd be very inclined to take, seeing as it'll mean I don't have to spend hours applying for grad schemes whilst balancing that with my third year studies. There's also a big risk that if I don't take the IB internship and wait for the actuarial companies to get back to me, that I risk getting rejected from all of them.

Thoughts? Is IB all that it's cracked up to be? Anyone had exposure to both areas? At the moment I'm feeling to accept the IB offer because I'd kick myself for an eternity if I ended up with nothing, however, there's always the option of holding out for actuarial and doing something I may enjoy slightly more (albeit with the lower pay).

 

[Sudden]

How long are the internships? Possibility of doing both?

Personally, I'd take the IB internship. A bird in the hand etc. I'm a big believer in doing what you enjoy, but you said that you 'may' enjoy acturial more. Doesn't seem like a good idea to me to reject something firm for the slight possibility.

And since it's just an internship, any grad offer wouldn't be for an immediate start. Could you defer the acturial internships until after IB internship / next round if you did get them?

 

[TNGL]

How long are the internships? Possibility of doing both?

Personally, I'd take the IB internship. A bird in the hand etc. I'm a big believer in doing what you enjoy, but you said that you 'may' enjoy acturial more. Doesn't seem like a good idea to me to reject something firm for the slight possibility.

And since it's just an internship, any grad offer wouldn't be for an immediate start. Could you defer the acturial internships until after IB internship / next round if you did get them?

They both range in the 8 - 10 weeks range, so the IB one would take up much of my summer, leaving me with around 4-6 weeks for the other. I never thought about potentially doing both though, good idea! I might send a few e-mails around and see if any of them have flexible start dates and length.s

The other option is to potentially defer the IB internship into a sort of off cycle internship in winter, and that leaves room for an actuarial internship in the summer, however, I wouldn't like to do that because of January exams.

 

[dowie]

Do I take the IB internship offer and withdraw from the actuarial ones I still have open? Or do I hold out for an actuarial internship which I'd probably have more of an interest in? The major plus for the IB internship is the pay, it's the equivalent of just under £52k p.a for, which actuarial intern pay doesn't come near to.

utterly irrelevant - a mere rounding error in your lifetime earnings for either career, you shouldn't be swayed either way by the few grand extra you might earn over 8-10 weeks one summer

Thoughts? Is IB all that it's cracked up to be? Anyone had exposure to both areas? At the moment I'm feeling to accept the IB offer because I'd kick myself for an eternity if I ended up with nothing, however, there's always the option of holding out for actuarial and doing something I may enjoy slightly more (albeit with the lower pay).

What do you mean by IB?

Have you got an investment banking internship or an internship at an investment bank in some other area like sales and trading, operations, IT etc..?

Your decision depends on what you want to do really - I mean you're studying for a quantitative degree which requires lots of maths/statistics so would you be happy going into say investment banking where your quantitative skill set isn't so useful and your time would be mostly spent working long hours preparing powerpoint presentations, pitch books and traveling to meet clients.

On the other hand you might find some quantitative roles within banks interesting... (you've not been clear on what your internship is). You might also find operations roles boring.

If you're unsure then an investment banking internship or an internship in sales and trading is hard to land... if you've landed one of those and are unsure then I'd probably be inclined to say take it... landing a role at a big 4 or an actuarial consultancy will be a lot easier than landing a role in either of those areas at an investment bank... you pretty much need to have done the relevant internship.

 

[helpimcrap]

Take the money now - you might not be around in a couple of years.

Not the best advice I know but £52k is a lot of money you could invest to make more money and I've been in the situation of having an RTA and literally everything I loved to do was taken away from me through injury so I've had to find an alternative happy ending after a hell of a lot more hard work and still lots to go.

 

[dowie]

Take the money now - you might not be around in a couple of years.

Not the best advice I know but £52k is a lot of money you could invest to make more money and I've been in the situation of having an RTA and literally everything I loved to do was taken away from me through injury so I've had to find an alternative happy ending after a hell of a lot more hard work and still lots to go.

he's not getting 52k, he's working for 8-10 weeks

the money is basically irrelevant here anyway

 

[Sudden]

They both range in the 8 - 10 weeks range, so the IB one would take up much of my summer, leaving me with around 4-6 weeks for the other. I never thought about potentially doing both though, good idea! I might send a few e-mails around and see if any of them have flexible start dates and length.s

The other option is to potentially defer the IB internship into a sort of off cycle internship in winter, and that leaves room for an actuarial internship in the summer, however, I wouldn't like to do that because of January exams.

It may be tougher because of exams, but point of internships is also to see if it's the kind of work you might like. Strongly recommend you do both if that's an option.

Oh and second dowie's comment re. the money not being relevant here. The career is far more important than the short term gain.

 

[TNGL]

utterly irrelevant - a mere rounding error in your lifetime earnings for either career, you shouldn't be swayed either way by the few grand extra you might earn over 8-10 weeks one summer



What do you mean by IB?

Have you got an investment banking internship or an internship at an investment bank in some other area like sales and trading, operations, IT etc..?

Your decision depends on what you want to do really - I mean you're studying for a quantitative degree which requires lots of maths/statistics so would you be happy going into say investment banking where your quantitative skill set isn't so useful and your time would be mostly spent working long hours preparing powerpoint presentations, pitch books and traveling to meet clients.

On the other hand you might find some quantitative roles within banks interesting... (you've not been clear on what your internship is). You might also find operations roles boring.

If you're unsure then an investment banking internship or an internship in sales and trading is hard to land... if you've landed one of those and are unsure then I'd probably be inclined to say take it... landing a role at a big 4 or an actuarial consultancy will be a lot easier than landing a role in either of those areas at an investment bank... you pretty much need to have done the relevant internship.

I should have specified which part of IB I'm going into... I'd be spending time within fixed income as well as some time with the market risk dept. The good thing about this particular bank is there's a lot of internal mobility should I wish to explore other areas, meaning I'd hopefully be able to strike a balance between using my quantitative and qualitative skills eventually.

Take the money now - you might not be around in a couple of years.

Not the best advice I know but £52k is a lot of money you could invest to make more money and I've been in the situation of having an RTA and literally everything I loved to do was taken away from me through injury so I've had to find an alternative happy ending after a hell of a lot more hard work and still lots to go.

he's not getting 52k, he's working for 8-10 weeks

the money is basically irrelevant here anyway

Yeah Helpimcrap, it is quite a bit of money, even if it for 8-10 weeks like you say, Dowie. However, it isn't completely irrelevant to me. I see it as an indicator of what is to potentially come; if the internship is paying about £16k more p.a than most actuarial grad schemes, then a part of me thinks I'd be silly to turn my nose up at an entry route to a much more lucrative career all for the sake of enjoyment. Then again, I've not yet experienced how unenjoyable/enjoyable each is yet to be able to work out if the extra pay is worth it.

The other reason for being drawn in by the extra cash over the 8-10 weeks is so I can save up enough to fund next year's accommodation... Without it, I wouldn't be able to sustain living out in the third year, I've already been forced to commute to uni this year because of London rent prices.

It may be tougher because of exams, but point of internships is also to see if it's the kind of work you might like. Strongly recommend you do both if that's an option.

Oh and second dowie's comment re. the money not being relevant here. The career is far more important than the short term gain.

True, it is to see if I might enjoy the work but I won't be enjoying anything if I flop my exams. Third year counts for 60% of the overall degree, failing one of these exams could wreck my average.

I will definitely consider trying to squeeze another internship in at the end of the summer though.

 

[sports_brah]

Meh to fixed income (personal opinion only)

Risk is a great one, lots of avenues to explore for that. Completely dominates most areas atm (bane of my life)

 

[sports_brah]

I should have specified which part of IB I'm going into... I'd be spending time within fixed income as well as some time with the market risk dept. The good thing about this particular bank is there's a lot of internal mobility should I wish to explore other areas, meaning I'd hopefully be able to strike a balance between using my quantitative and qualitative skills eventually.






Yeah Helpimcrap, it is quite a bit of money, even if it for 8-10 weeks like you say, Dowie. However, it isn't completely irrelevant to me. I see it as an indicator of what is to potentially come; if the internship is paying about £16k more p.a than most actuarial grad schemes, then a part of me thinks I'd be silly to turn my nose up at an entry route to a much more lucrative career all for the sake of enjoyment. Then again, I've not yet experienced how unenjoyable/enjoyable each is yet to be able to work out if the extra pay is worth it.

The other reason for being drawn in by the extra cash over the 8-10 weeks is so I can save up enough to fund next year's accommodation... Without it, I wouldn't be able to sustain living out in the third year, I've already been forced to commute to uni this year because of London rent prices.



True, it is to see if I might enjoy the work but I won't be enjoying anything if I flop my exams. Third year counts for 60% of the overall degree, failing one of these exams could wreck my average.

I will definitely consider trying to squeeze another internship in at the end of the summer though.

Make sure you don't **** up your exams. Seriously. No easier way to watch your offers dry up...

 

[dowie]

Yeah Helpimcrap, it is quite a bit of money, even if it for 8-10 weeks like you say, Dowie. However, it isn't completely irrelevant to me. I see it as an indicator of what is to potentially come; if the internship is paying about £16k more p.a than most actuarial grad schemes, then a part of me thinks I'd be silly to turn my nose up at an entry route to a much more lucrative career all for the sake of enjoyment. Then again, I've not yet experienced how unenjoyable/enjoyable each is yet to be able to work out if the extra pay is worth it.

they're both lucrative careers... though a typical investment banker will earn significantly more than an actuary, as will a trader, salesperson or structurer....

on the other hand not everyone in an investment bank is a trader or an investment banker or other well paid front office role there are plenty of people in their early 30s stuck at VP level in boring middle office or operations roles in banks making £1XXK per year working long hours. A significant number of them might have wanted or perhaps still do want a front office role and are left feeling frustrated.

Whereas qualified actuaries of a similar age probably make similar amounts if not slightly more, have much shorter hours, a more relaxed work environment and are well respected/in leadership roles within their organisation by that point. Most actuaries according to surveys etc.. seem to enjoy their work... they're also not confined to working in London, NYC etc.. you can start a family instead in say Bristol or Birmingham and still earn a nice salary.

if your internship gives you a decent shot at a front office role in an investment bank then it is almost certainly worth pursuing (if that is the sort of thing that interests you) - they are supposed to be pretty competitive so congrats for landing one, if you don't like it and decide to become an actuary you'll probably be able to get on a grad scheme somewhere anyway since you've already proven to be competitive against what is likely much stiffer competition for the investment bank role

 

[TNGL]

they're both lucrative careers... though a typical investment banker will earn significantly more than an actuary, as will a trader, salesperson or structurer....

on the other hand not everyone in an investment bank is a trader or an investment banker or other well paid front office role there are plenty of people in their early 30s stuck at VP level in boring middle office or operations roles in banks making £1XXK per year working long hours. A significant number of them might have wanted or perhaps still do want a front office role and are left feeling frustrated.

Whereas qualified actuaries of a similar age probably make similar amounts if not slightly more, have much shorter hours, a more relaxed work environment and are well respected/in leadership roles within their organisation by that point. Most actuaries according to surveys etc.. seem to enjoy their work... they're also not confined to working in London, NYC etc.. you can start a family instead in say Bristol or Birmingham and still earn a nice salary.

if your internship gives you a decent shot at a front office role in an investment bank then it is almost certainly worth pursuing (if that is the sort of thing that interests you) - they are supposed to be pretty competitive so congrats for landing one, if you don't like it and decide to become an actuary you'll probably be able to get on a grad scheme somewhere anyway since you've already proven to be competitive against what is likely much stiffer competition for the investment bank role

Thanks for the insight, I have heard actuaries have a good work/life balance as well as mobility, both of which are obviously very important factors. I'm going to go ahead and accept the internship at the IB and see how it goes, I'll also contact the actuarial firms I still have applications open with about if I can do an internship with them later in the summer (if I'm successful in getting a place that is). Mind you, saying that, I've found the actuarial applications much longer and harder to successfully navigate than the IB ones... So hopefully I would still be able to get on a grad scheme somewhere like you say, if I wasn't to enjoy the internship at the IB.

 

[Kemik]

You won't be able to do both internships as the periods are generally not flexible. Go for the IB one. You want to try it, find out if you enjoy it, gives you time to question grads there, fall back to actuarial if you don't. Easy.

 

[Sudden]

You won't be able to do both internships as the periods are generally not flexible. Go for the IB one. You want to try it, find out if you enjoy it, gives you time to question grads there, fall back to actuarial if you don't. Easy.

Periods aren't flexible generally (at least for law), but law firms sometimes offer vacation schemes (similar to internships, but typically for 2 weeks) both in the summer and in the winter. OP indicated this might be possible here. No harm in exploring the option.

 

[Hxc]

Be aware that while IB pays well, the hours you do compensate. I know a fair few people who work for IBs and their life is IB. The work/life balance isn't there.

 

[Sudden]

Be aware that while IB pays well, the hours you do compensate. I know a fair few people who work for IBs and their life is IB. The work/life balance isn't there.

This is very true, but my cousin was in fixed income and research like the OP is considering for a while, and she had very decent hours. 7/8 - 5:30. Hardly ever stayed later or worked weekends.

No personal experience though, so can't comment. Generally if industries pay a lot, they do expect to buy your time. I work at a big tech multinational and when work/life balance was raised, answers were either "It's your work, it's your life. Balance it" or "You know where you work. What did you expect?" (I promise the company is a lot friendlier than it seems very flexible etc.).