is a IPS screen worth it for gaming??

DrBombcrater said:
So 'gamers' don't care if the blue sky in their game is rendered as purple by a TN panel? Or gradients appearing where there shouldn't be any? I have to disagree, strongly. Poor image quality has a negative impact on most types of game, bar perhaps some particularly frenetic FPSs.


I've often wondered why people bother calibrating a TN, it's an exercise in self-delusion. The best you can hope for is a small patch in the centre of the the screen where the colour is reasonably accurate (or as accurate as it's possible to get on a panel that has to fake 97% of the shades produced by the graphics card), TN's viewing angle problems mean there's no hope of anything off-centre being even vaguely accurate.

No amount of calibration, not the best calibrator in the world, nor any kind of backlight, can stop TN turning blue into purple, red into pink, and solid colours into gradients.
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So you're exactly the kind of TN-phobic person with an IPS superiority complex that I was referring to? Throwing in useless statistics like "fake 97% of the shades" is simply ludicrous, not least on a mathematical level. The only thing inaccurate here are your statements. It would be a very poor TN panel if you're getting blues that look purple, oranges that look yellow etc. etc. etc.

I would not for a second say that the colour reproduction of any TN panel I've used is perfect - especially not from offcentre viewing angles. Of course things would be better if calibration were not needed (fingers crossed for the PX2370) but even without calibration a gamer will not look at the image produced and think that somehow he is being deceived by this illusion of colour infront of him. Unless he has some serious monitor placement issue that means he can't be sat infront of it as is normal for a computer user. The problem here is people who make outlandish claims about inaccurate colours that lead potential buyers to become unnecessarily confused and worried about 'TN panels'. :mad: I don't need to justify this position - it comes from direct experience with countless monitors of all panel types. It's part of my job!
 
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Hi,

With your pfofessional expertise I respect your input as I'm in the same dilema myself (being a keen FPS gamer, a simmer and a semi-pro photographer!) over choice of monitor. I've noticed a few e-tailors are advertising the PX2370 as being in stock for next day delivery - is this the case do you know, has it been released early?

Is 1920 x 1080 and 16:9 a major drawback?

Cheers,

Paul.
 
I went through exactly his dilemna a couple of months ago.

I have always had tn panels, samsung ten viewsonic and I always felt I was missing something since moving from a crt.

I eventually bit the bullet and bought myself this from ocuk when they had them in stock:

NEC MultiSync EA231WMi (which is a e-ips panel)

X Bit labs has a recent review of this and so does tftcentral.

I use my pc for gaming, trackmania united/nations, oblivion, anno1404 and the occasional fps. I also use it to watch tv when im in bed in the evening. As a tv screen its actually much better than my samsung 32inch in the living room.

Personally the difference really is like night and day, not just colur accuracy, that is probably relative/subjective anyway, but the whole scene which is drawn is more solid. I always felt than all my tn panel were washed out, the edge of colours never seemed correct, with this screen if you have a blue, purple and green scene next to each other I can actually see the distinction. My old panels appear smudgy by comparison.

I know it's not a technical explantion but I am well pleased with the monitor, and unlike my old screens I expect to keep it for a long time.

Ultimatly if having an ips or pva panel is nagging you, you probably wont scratch the itch until you actually use one.

My panel has no discernible ghosting or lag, in fact tn panels can be laggier then ips panels because some of the overdrive tech in some of them adds another layer of processing.
 
I haven't actually used the EA231WMi, but I have used several Dell S-IPS panels and Apple Cinema displays. I agree that, compared to most TN panels, you will certainly notice a difference. The colours seem more lively and vivid with smooth gradients and distinct colour blocks - with colours remaining accurate if you move your head about the screen (to a certain extent). But there is also a danger in lumping 'TN panels' together, and from my relatively extensive experience with different TN panels I can say that this is a very foolhardy thing to do.

That feeling you probably got when you received your NEC e-IPS monitor was one of "wow - this is different... it's better... I like it". That is exactly the same feeling I got comparing the XL2370 to other Samsung TN panels and even the Apple Cinema displays. On the flipside - I also tend to disagree with people who claim that IPS panels suffer from poor response times and are therefore no good for gaming. In truth a modern IPS panel can be excellent for gaming, although 120Hz support wouldn't go amiss.

@ Flying Anorak.

I am not a huge fan of the 16:9 aspect ratio - however, I have found that when you have 23" of screen space and a 1920x1080 resolution to play with, it's actually a very workable combination for gaming, movies, photo editing and general desktop usage. I will not "officially" recommend the PX2370 until some trustworthy reviews are in (and/or I have had the chance to test it myself), but I am aware that a certain retailer in particular has released the monitor early. It has actually been on Asian retail for a while, and I just missed getting my hands on one when I was in Hong Kong. I have to say seeing Samsung's OLED prototypes more than made up for it! They really are on a different level.
 
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The screens I saw were behind closed doors, so to speak, but I do believe some of them were shown as prototypes during CES2009 and CES2010. I saw a variety of displays ranging in size from around 8 inches to 40 inches. Getting to around the size of a PC monitor and the difference in image quality really does become noticeable - it is just so natural looking.

Although you can't actually buy them yet, a prototype OLED screen of around 20" could cost in excess of £8,000. Although there are many variables that aren't taken into account, I remember them saying it would be in the region of 100,000 HKD if they released it today. Although guessing is the best we could do, I would say that you might see semi-affordable OLED monitors in the UK no sooner than 2013. Being optimistic, it may be only beyond 2015 they really start to become affordable and replace LCD screens in our homes. Given this, I wouldn't hold your breath. I could be wrong and the pace could pick up, but I'd say you could buy a new monitor today and not worry about it becoming obsolete for at least a few years. :p
 
All of the TN panels I have seen so far use 6 bit colour whereas the IPS and most PVA panels I have seen are all 8 bit. If there are any 8 bit TN panels it would be nice to know what monitors use them!

This means that 6 bit TN panel can only display 262144 colours at any one time on the screen and need to employ dithering to give an impression of greater colour depth. The monitors which use IPS and 8 bit PVA panel types can display 16.7 million colours on screen. Having used various monitors myself I would say that 8 bit IPS and PVA panels are better than TN panels of the same generation for colour accuracy when calibrated. OTH,it does not mean that TN panels are terrible but that IPS and PVA panels tend to be better for applications which require critical colour accuracy.

If you don't need absolute colour accuracy then a TN panel will still do the job quite nicely and be much cheaper.
 
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Indeed. As long as people realise that inferior colour accuracy is not the same as a narrow colour gamut or colours that are completely "off" that's excellent. I do actually appreciate accurate colours for photo editing work and this is where the broad-colour gamuts of LED-backlit TNs in particular seem to suffer. On the flipside a nice broad colour gamut coupled with high contrast can really bring movies and games to life and make them look very vivid and colourful. The accuracy of the colours of a calibrated XL2370 was actually very impressive considering the underlying technology, but it still takes a fair bit of calibration - I'm really looking forward to seeing how the sRGB mode of the PX2370 fairs.
 
PCM2 said:
So you're exactly the kind of TN-phobic person with an IPS superiority complex that I was referring to?
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Assumptions make you look silly. For the record I don't own a single IPS screen and have no plans to buy any. I'm no IPS zealot.

Throwing in useless statistics like "fake 97% of the shades" is simply ludicrous, not least on a mathematical level.
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You'll find the 97% figure is actually giving TN a break by presuming FRC can double the available range of colours by 2x without being perceptible (which isn't the case on most TN screens). The actual figure, counting pure shades without dithering or FRC, is approximately 98.5%.

This is not a useless statistic, nor 'ludicrous'. It's a basic statement of fact regarding how many colours a TN panel can show before it has to resort to FRC and dithering tricks that degrade the integrity of the image.
 
Whichever way you look at it, your statements regarding the colour quality of 'TN panels' (again a foolish thing to lump them all together) were exagerated and absurd. I understand what you are saying about the way that TN panels display colours, and you are right that the difference between 6-bit and 8-bit colour (or higher) is a lot more significant than one might think.

What I really took issue with was your very aggressive and exagerated stance regarding the colours themselves. Human perception is a strange thing - regardless of how the colours themselves are outputted by the display the disparity between a given ideal colour and the perceived colour is negligible on a good TN panel. For the sake of this thread the fast response times, high contrast and brightness and broad colour gamut that a good modern TN panel offers is exactly what you need for gaming. Whichever panel type you get you are compromising in some way - trust me when I say that OLED screens make even the image quality of a good IPS screen look laughable. And that isn't even taking into account the absolutely phenominal difference in responsiveness.
 
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CAT-THE-FIFTH said:
All of the TN panels I have seen so far use 6 bit colour whereas the IPS and most PVA panels I have seen are all 8 bit. If there are any 8 bit TN panels it would be nice to know what monitors use them!
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My Samsung 2343BW has (yes really) a true 8bit TN panel - but I'm not sure if the ones on sale now are as there was a slight revision change after the first run and I'm pretty sure I saw FRC in there on the stats for the new panel.

Having the 2343 side by side with a 2233 the dithering on the 2233 is noticeable if you look for it compared to the 2343 which has smooth gradients.

http://aten-hosted.com/images/desk10.jpg

Phoenixdancer said:
ALL Tns are crap vs a IPS
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Depends what your useage is - in the realworld TNs generally have significant advantages for fast paced gaming that an increase in visual quality can't compensate for, tho I've not seen any recent TN panel thats really that bad.
 
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Rroff said:
Depends what your useage is - in the realworld TNs generally have significant advantages for fast paced gaming that an increase in visual quality can't compensate for, tho I've not seen any recent TN panel thats really that bad.
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Indeed they do. And visual acuity is of course about more than just accuracy of colours. A high response time, high contrast and a broad colour gamut (which isn't the same thing as colour precision) are far more desirable to a gamer or movie fan than colours that conform as accurately as possible to some predefined values. Of course good colour reproduction (i.e. a smooth colour gradient) is also desirable, and this is why I was particularly positive about Samsung's XL2370.
 
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Don't worry about it Troezar - it always depends on the intended use and everyone does have their own opinion. I am fortunate enough to have had experience with an enormous range of different panel types, including ones some people may not get to see for several years. Above all else it is never a good idea to make sweeping statements about a type of panel. You must consider panels on an individual basis rather than basing judgement on other panels of the same type and 'whitepaper' specifications. It is true that every panel has its strengths and weaknesses. I am hoping that organic LED displays, once commercially viable, will combine all the merits of existing technologies and expand upon them.
 
Rroff said:
My Samsung 2343BW has (yes really) a true 8bit TN panel - but I'm not sure if the ones on sale now are as there was a slight revision change after the first run and I'm pretty sure I saw FRC in there on the stats for the new panel.

Having the 2343 side by side with a 2233 the dithering on the 2233 is noticeable if you look for it compared to the 2343 which has smooth gradients.

http://aten-hosted.com/images/desk10.jpg
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Thanks for that! It would be nice if more notebooks used 8 bit panels as I believe the vast majority still use 6 bit TN panels.
 
One thing which I have noticed with the OLED displays I have seen is their amazing viewing angles. OTH,I think the major issues with OLED panels apart from cost will be their lifespan and how resistant they are to screen burn-in.
 
I think a major concern people had with OLED screens initially was the relatively rapid degredation of the organic materials used for blue-emissive pixels. The degradation of such material was much more rapid than that of the materials used for the red and green pixels; so the blue end of the gamut would become weaker over time.

Samsung and their partners are making a real effort to increase the lifetime of OLED pixels of all colours. By using a special method of ‘spraying’ organic materials onto the substrate and by using slightly different materials, there is hope that blue-emissive OLED pixels could be extended from an expected lifespan of 14,000 hours to 60,000 hours (nearly 7 years). This would mean that all pixel colours would degrade at similar rates and would give the OLED monitor a useful life of several years. The spraying method should also go some way to reducing manufacturing costs (a large hurdle) by reducing wasted materials.
 
PCM2 said:
I think a major concern people had with OLED screens initially was the relatively rapid degredation of the organic materials used for blue-emissive pixels. The degradation of such material was much more rapid than that of the materials used for the red and green pixels; so the blue end of the gamut would become weaker over time.

Samsung and their partners are making a real effort to increase the lifetime of OLED pixels of all colours. By using a special method of ‘spraying’ organic materials onto the substrate and by using slightly different materials, there is hope that blue-emissive OLED pixels could be extended from an expected lifespan of 14,000 hours to 60,000 hours (nearly 7 years). This would mean that all pixel colours would degrade at similar rates and would give the OLED monitor a useful life of several years. The spraying method should also go some way to reducing manufacturing costs (a large hurdle) by reducing wasted materials.
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How long before we start to see quality OLED PC monitors available at a respectable price? I assume we'll pay through the nose at first.
 
Yeah I would think this is probably an accurate assumption. If you remember back to the early days of consumer LCD monitors (circa 2001), you could pay $1000 USD+ British ripoff tax for a 15 inch screen. It wasn't really until 2005-6 or so that you could say that LCD monitors in "useful" sizes started becoming more mainstream. It was only actually 2007-8 onwards that you would really consider buying a 22 inch+ screen without feeling like you'd been ripped off.

All going well, we might see semi-affordable OLED monitors in the consumer marketplace by perhaps 2012-2013. But these will likely still be in the several hundred pounds mark for a 20" monitor. I would like to think that by 2015 and beyond OLED monitors will become a real conideration for the home user. The pace of things could have course change and things may happen a little more quickly. From what I've seen so far the technology itself is very impressive and has improved massively over the last year or so. There are still the cost hurdles to overcome, but hopefully given a few years they will be.
 
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