Is England wasting talent?

Ex-RoNiN

Ex-RoNiN

Ex-RoNiN

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Seems to me that in English footballs, talents are wasted too quickly and early. Examples: Becks is not what he used to be 2-4 years ago, same with Owen, same with Giggs, Gerrard isn't impressive either this season.

Then you have people like Wayne Rooney who have not started a dozen games yet, but are already in the national team. In another league, Rooney would have taken another year just to make the U-19 team, as he has hardly played.

So what do you think, do you think that youngsters are becoming regulars too early and thus peak too early?
 
agreed totally

people will say that if yer good enough yer young enough bu i tend to disagree.

Talent needs to be nurtured for a long time before players will be ready not only for the added pressure but for the mentality that accompanies being a national team player.


In this country we tend to overlook proven talent for example Beattie (excellent form for Southampton) for younger less experienced players such as rooney and jeffers.

These players have years ahead of them and will be given there chance when they have proved themselves at higher levels. Jeffers for example isn't even a first team regular at Arsenal has scored only a couple of goals this season but is picked ahead of the likes of Beattie simply because he is young.

This to me is wrong. We in England do not let our talent have enough time to mature and to learn how to cope with the pressures of the game and the criticsm that can be recieved especially in England colours as the press are absolutely ludicrous in there scathing critiscm when results do not go our way.

Rooney for me shouldnt even be considered at the moment for England (Alhtough he is quality) he should be playing this season and next in the Under 19's and then move up to the Under 21's for a year or so. This would aid his developent in so many ways as he would undoubetdly be able to perform and grow in confidence while playing for these sides. However he has been picked again for england at such a tender age and I feel that it may well benefit england in the short term but we will be paying a hefty price in the longterm for blooding him too early.
 
Couldn't disagree more.

If you are good enough then you are old enough. It's the player's mentality that changes when they feel they are permanent fixtures in the team eg Gerrard, Owen, Scholes etc......

Beattie is also young. He's hardly at an age where he is ready to retire :rolleyes:

Its the players that cause themselves to perform to a lower level when they become complacent. If it was put to them that they would have serious competition for their places if they didn't perform then I have no doubts that they would instantly regain their form of years ago when they did have competition for their places....
 
Originally posted by [ASSE]Hinchy

Beattie is also young. He's hardly at an age where he is ready to retire :rolleyes:
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did i ever say he was ? :rolleyes:

However he does have 7 years more experience than rooney and will be coming into his prime within 2-3 years.

Jeffers and Rooney still have 8 and 5 years respectively before they will reach anywhere near theres.

By blooding them now you get short term solutions to long term problems.

They should be placed in the say Under 21's (under 19's might of been a bit harsh on rooney) and then learn to play together with the rest of the young lads i.e jenas, joe cole, prutton etc etc so that in a few years time they will have all played international football together and be a good working solid unit.

This is what France did this is what portugal did to produce teams that were going to challenge for honours over long periods of time.

They did not throw there youth talent in the deep end and wait for them to drown.
 
I would agree in the main about blooding players too early, but I think when a youngster comes through who offers something different to what is currently available, he is usually put in. Owen had raw pace that absolutely no English striker had, while Rooney has a directness and ability with the ball at his feet that no other English striker has. It gives the England manager more options and more ways to win games when these players are available to him.

However, I would say Beattie should be in the squad too. He's always been a somewhat average striker, but it seems those formative years have turned him into a very good striker (assuming this isn't a one-off season that some strikers get). He'd be in there ahead of Jeffers who offers nothing different to what we already have in the squad.
 
Personally I don't buy into this "so and so will be coming into their prime in x years", based on an age of around 27-29 usually. I think players mature at different times and in many cases their prime may actually occur at an earlier age. For example I doubt Michael Owen will be much better at age 28 than age 21, a bit more knowhow and experience etc (remember he still had 3 years international experience, including 2 major championships at age 21), but perhaps a little less pace, his most important attribute.

Other examples would be Ronaldo, I think he may get back to his old level but will he surpass it significantly? Giggs is another one. And then you have the likes of Lee Sharpe, whose top flight career was basically over by the time he reached 28-29, yet back in the early nineties he was practically a legend.

You could argue that england would be wasting talent even more by not picking these exciting young players. However I do agree that players shouldn't just get in he squad because of their "potential", or how young they are. Down the years the England setup has largely ignored mature, proven club players like Ian Wright, Matt Le Tissier and Ray Parlour, maybe Robbie Fowler too. None of these ever get what I would call a decent run in the side that their club form merited. Meanwhile the likes of Phil Neville were getting picked for the squad practically every time.

Beattie has more claim to a place in the squad than Jeffers or Vassell in my view, not that I think they are bad players but he is the leading scorer in the premiership afterall. I wonder when the last time the leading non-retired english goalscorer in the premierleague (assuming 20 goals+ reached) didn't get a place in the england squad... wouldn't suprise me if it was Ian Wright.

I would really like to see what would happen if we gave David Platt and his u21 setup the chance to pick whoever they liked and create the nucleus of a team for the future. Robinson, Barry, Prutton, Defoe, Cole, Rooney, Carrick (too old?) etc.
 
Originally posted by memphisto
Jeffers for example isn't even a first team regular at Arsenal has scored only a couple of goals this season but is picked ahead of the likes of Beattie simply because he is young.
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Sorry I was a bit touchy about this whole thing still so I took that as saying Beattie was too old. I'm such a woman sometimes :p hehe


Originally posted by HangTime
Beattie has more claim to a place in the squad than Jeffers or Vassell in my view, not that I think they are bad players but he is the leading scorer in the premiership afterall. I wonder when the last time the leading non-retired english goalscorer in the premierleague (assuming 20 goals+ reached) didn't get a place in the england squad... wouldn't suprise me if it was Ian Wright.
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Think it was Kevin Phillips wasn't it?
 
Didn't he refuse the B team though? And that's why he's never been in the squad since? Plus the fact he's poo :p

Another thing confusing me is Giggs' name being banded about. Thought this was about english strikers?
 
Originally posted by memphisto
Giggs was mentioned as a player who peaked to early thats all.
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Fair enough, but I thought we were talking about England.

To counter-balance those that do peak early, there's always those that keep going. Di Canio, Sheringham, Batty, etc.

These are the players that have what they need upstairs as well as the talent they need. They can play the thinking game and their movement and positioning is good, so they don't have to deal with the lack of pace when they get older.

Look at the players mentioned so far. Owen, Giggs, Sharpe (?), These are pacey players (not sure Sharpe was, maybe he just lost the hunger same as Beckham) and therefore when the pace starts going, so does the edge on their game.
 
true gilly but Di Canio never played for his national side

Sheringham did when he was around 28-30 (cant remember when he made his debut)

not sure about Batty I think he was probably around the same age as sherignham when he made the england side.

This in my view is what we need as the likes of sherignham and Batty were picked when they were at there peaks and played on through the following few years. These players already had years of experience dealing with the pressures of football and playing top flight football so the step up to the national side was not a big one.


However imagine Rooney what if he turns out to be a flop at national level over the next 6 months ? The kid will probably be slated by the press, his confidence will be shattered and we will be again left with a wreck of a player who once promised so much.

therefore i just think long term is the way forward and not continually searching for short term solutions to problems.

Like Hangtime said Imagine Dplatt haviong any under 21 player to choose from ? he could then nurture and preapre an entire generation of young players who would graduate as a team (not just individuals) to the national side.

This would benefit England for years to come as it did to france and portugal.
 
Automatic team places are a big problem. For instance on current form Owen and Heskey wouldn't be in the squad let alone starting. imo.

Players like Dyer are wasted on England because of the poor tactics used and the fear of propping Gerard or Beckham means when players break into the squad they end up being played out of position. I've lost count of the number of players Sven has played on the left wing that are in no way left wingers.
 
Originally posted by memphisto
Sheringham did when he was around 28-30 (cant remember when he made his debut)

not sure about Batty I think he was probably around the same age as sherignham when he made the england side.
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Don't forget though mate, they were only picked around 28-30 because that's the time when they were good enough to get in. Before that time there were better players in the squad than them, so being at their peak doesn't mean that much.

It's more a question of timing IMHO. If there were 4 top notch experienced English strikers around who were scoring consistently then I imagine Rooney would be overlooked for now, but as there are few around playing and scoring (Owen and Beattie really) then it's no surprise that the younger players get looked at.

Anyway, for those that think picking players for the National team at age 17 can ruin them, just remember that Pele won the World Cup at 17, playing a starring role, and he went on to be quite good didn't he? ;)
 
Originally posted by Davey_Pitch

Anyway, for those that think picking players for the National team at age 17 can ruin them, just remember that Pele won the World Cup at 17, playing a starring role, and he went on to be quite good didn't he? ;)
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He wasn't bad but where is he now?

Wearing a yellow pac-a-mac and advertising products designed for men that can't get it up! :p
 
Originally posted by Tweek_1984
They need to get Matt Jansen in after he fully recovers from his accident.
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Is he good enough though? I'm still unsure where he plays, as he seems to drift from midfield and up front, and unfortunately for him we have plenty of good players in those areas.
 
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