Is murder sometimes not murder on the grounds of diminished responsibility?

[Tykey]

Nottingham attacks: Families call for law change after CPS review

A review following the Nottingham attacks suggests the government should reconsider homicide laws.

www.bbc.co.uk

The article is about the killing of the young couple Barnaby Webber and Grace O'Malley-Kumar, both 19, and Ian Coates, 65, who were stabbed to death on 13 June by the paranoid schizophrenic Valdo Calocane, and the bereaved families anger at the sentencing.

My opinion is that such a serious illness does heavily come into play into the judgement of the killer, that him being found guilty and given an indefinite hospital order is more suitable than a life prison sentence. He was found guilty of manslaughter and not murder. While I appreciate the families of the deceased must be heartbroken, I'm not sure if I agree with some of the comments, such as :

"...if you commit murder and you have mental health issues, then it is very unlikely you are going to be tried for murder...", this is wrong imo, it's only for very specific mental illness of the most severe type will this apply to, 99% of mental illnesses sufferers will still get prison etc.

"...I think the first question you have to ask is - can a paranoid schizophrenic commit murder in this country? Because it seems to me that you can't, and that's impossible for us to understand...". This shows a basic lack of understanding on what paranoid schizophrenia is and how it affects the decisions of the person imo.

 

[[FnG]magnolia]

To your headline: yes.

To your content: a more difficult question where frameworks and procedures and legal precedent are reviewed rather than a single, albeit alarming, case study like the one in your OP.

 

[Minusorange]

He will never get out of that hospital, so what does it really matter whether legally he's a murderer or a manslaughterer, the justice is he's going to be locked away

 

[Chuk_Chuk]

from wiki the legal definition of murder is

It is considered the most serious form of homicide, in which one person kills another with the intention to unlawfully cause either death or serious injury.

I don’t know much about Paranoid Schizophrenia, but my assumption is that to not be charged with murder it must be demonstrated that the person is too mentally impaired to understand the actions they have under taken.

 

[dave28]

I just find it hard to believe that he did not know exactly what he was doing, he tried to get in though some window planning ahead to kill more people, he killed a man planning to take his van, planning to drive into people, he took a knife planning to kill, he waited and planned to stab those two people, he planned and he thought about each step he did. I think he was angry and set out and planned to hurt and kill as many as he could that night.

 

[BUDFORCE]

Should have just shot him.

 

[Voltar]

Yes, it is a defence at law to murder. The onus is on the defendant to raise it and then generally speaking if successful a manslaughter conviction will be the result.

As to content of your post re serious mental illness insanity is also a defence. You’d get a trial of guilty act as incapable of forming the requisite mental element(s) of the offence and then some form of hospital order upon conviction afaik.

 

[ianh]

so what does it really matter whether legally he's a murderer or a manslaughterer

It matters to the loved ones of those he killed, that should be obvious!

 

[ajf]

He will never get out of that hospital, so what does it really matter whether legally he's a murderer or a manslaughterer, the justice is he's going to be locked away

Same thoughts I had as well.
I could perhaps understand if murder still carried a death penalty, or he’d been given a silly short sentence, but an indefinite hospital order is pretty much the same as life in prison, perhaps worse in some cases.

 

[Mysterae_]

I don't get this bit, from the BBC article:

"Calocane, 32, who a court heard was suffering from paranoid schizophrenia at the time of the killings, admitted manslaughter and three counts of attempted murder on 28 November."

Should that not read:

"Calocane, 32, who a court heard was suffering from paranoid schizophrenia at the time of the killings, admitted three counts of successful murder and three counts of attempted murder on 28 November."

Crazy should not be a defence.

 

[Angilion]

It matters to the loved ones of those he killed, that should be obvious!

It's not even vengeance, since they're not calling for the legal right to kill him. They're calling for a "change" from a life sentence to a life sentence, i.e. no change at all.

 

[Orangeade]

I think I would rather be charged with murder than mental health indefinite order....you have more chance of parole with first than being released with second one...

 

[Minusorange]

It matters to the loved ones of those he killed, that should be obvious!

So they want him guilty of murder, sent to prison and have the chance for parole after half his sentence is served ?

 

[Werewolf]

So they want him guilty of murder, sent to prison and have the chance for parole after half his sentence is served ?

That did occur to me.

As it is, before he can ever be considered for release he's got to convince the medical people that not only is his condition under control, but it will remain so if he's released, and they'll want a long time of him showing he's not a danger before they'll even consider it.
Given what he's done when it wasn't under control, and how difficult it is to get something like that under control in some people it means he's probably never going to see the outside of a secure unit as once outside there is the risk he'll stop taking medications etc.

People like to say things like the "insanity" or "diminished responsibility" cases are a way to get an easy/lower sentence, the reality is that it's more likely you'll spend far longer locked up, just in a place with doctors and orderlies rather than guards.

 

[Hotwired]

If he's "getting away with murder" then how is his future supposed to get any worse?

If you cannot improve then your hospital order will be extended until you're a cabbage or a corpse.

 

[VincentHanna]

Prison is already awash with people who shouldn't be there, due to mental health issues.

The families surely aren't proposing he be sent to a prison instead of a secure mental health facility?

 

[Pawnless Endgame]

Grabbing a vehicle and running people over.

Diminished capacity or not, he knew what he was doing.

 

[Chuk_Chuk]

I don't get this bit, from the BBC article:

"Calocane, 32, who a court heard was suffering from paranoid schizophrenia at the time of the killings, admitted manslaughter and three counts of attempted murder on 28 November."

Should that not read:

"Calocane, 32, who a court heard was suffering from paranoid schizophrenia at the time of the killings, admitted three counts of successful murder and three counts of attempted murder on 28 November."

Crazy should not be a defence.

Now that you mention it if he’s not capable of murder hence the manslaughter plea, then how can he be charged with attempted murder.

 

[Mysterae_]

Now that you mention it if he’s not capable of murder hence the manslaughter plea, then how can he be charged with attempted murder.

Exactly.

 

[BowdonUK]

I think each individual case needs to be assessed on it's merits.

If his mental issue was being controlled by medication and he didn't take the meds then that is murder in my view because he would have known what he was doing stopping the medication.

If he wasn't on medication and became delusional then I'd say he'd had diminish responsibility.

One thing I don't understand about mental illness is at some point the guy must have known right from wrong. If you're hearing a voice telling you to kill someone, an act you've never done before, why listen to the voice? Surely you still know it's wrong and should seek help?

The only experience I've had with mental health is depression. During that period I didn't realise I was depressed. I just had a heavy pressure feeling, and I'd repeat my actions, and do the exact the same routine everyday. It's only when I came out of it a year later that I realised how depressed I was. I'd like to think if I had thoughts of harming others or myself that I would have known enough to seek help.