It has been interesting in the friendlies and now first few matches in the national league, obviously there are limits to football at this level in terms of finesse anyway - even more than ever most of the teams just go at each other like battering rams or play very long with passive play and defending is shockingly bad resulting in a lot of higher scoring games and/or higher scoring draws - which aren't actually that interesting though it sounds like they should be good games on paper - with basic defending errors giving away cheap goals.
Is the art of defending dead?
- Thread starter Rikmeister
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It has been interesting in the friendlies and now first few matches in the national league, obviously there are limits to football at this level in terms of finesse anyway - even more than ever most of the teams just go at each other like battering rams or play very long with passive play and defending is shockingly bad resulting in a lot of higher scoring games and/or higher scoring draws - which aren't actually that interesting though it sounds like they should be good games on paper - with basic defending errors giving away cheap goals.
There is clearly something at play here because the defending in Uniteds 6-1 loss wasn't bad it was non existent. We weren't cut to pieces with good passes or caught slightly flat or out of position, we were just nowhere to be seen half the time. The amount of space on our left side was appalling. Defending well against good teams is hard. Uniteds defending was suicidal and Liverpool were just hit repeatedly on the break and with balls in behind. Utterly bizarre games.
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The remarkable thing is, especially with the Liverpool goals, was that the players didn't seen to learn from their mistakes, they didn't adjust their game, they kept falling into the same trap again and again. As you say, bizarre.
Caporegime
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Footballers on a whole are not the smartest in the book. Harry Kane seems really simple from that recent documentary. Footballers do what their manager tells them. That's why your Pirlo's, Scholes, Xavi are such a rare breed because they actually had brains.
Ha ha, and that’s why it’s a shame not the smartest yet somehow getting paid thousands a week to make basic mistakes
also some teams insist on playing out from the back which leads to risky passes across the defence etc
On a positive though last season Wan bisakka was one of the best defenders without a shadow of doubt, an expert in slide tackling
Caporegime
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You should really watch the Spurs doc on Amazon. Deli Ali has a mental age of a 10 year old. I guess that's why they love Fortnite so much!
Seen snippets on YouTube , any of the meetings with Mou they just look depressed like they’re in school or something. Wonder if this is how it was with Pochettino who over achieved
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Footballers live in a bubble. They're brought up in a bubble (unless they've come via non-league and had normal jobs before). They can be very insular and unaware of how normal people live, but unless there is genetic or environmental pressure coupling high footballing ability with low intelligence I don't see why footballers should be any more or less smart that the average man/woman in the street.
Interesting debate and one thats been had over numerous years previously. This year does seem to be particularly awful though.
Good solid teams like Burnley and Sheff Utd who were usually very tough to break down and you had to earn your win against them are shipping them now
Look at the 2 teams who have let the least goals in so far (Hammers and Villa) Yes , Villa , you read it right. 2 goals conceded. 5 teams already in double figures and only 4 games in , its gone crazy
It must be a combination of all the factors mentioned. VAR causing defenders to become more circumspect with tackles perhaps , attackers knowing any touch or intent and they go down like a Japanese sniper has done 'em. Handball a joke but havnt got the stats for how many pens have been awarded this season. Some goallie mistakes , good finishing as well it has to be said. Perhaps the attack minded intent from owners/fans/pundits to give entertainment is filtering in. Loss of stoic managers perhaps in the mold of Allardyce who would build on not conceding first
Shoulder shrugs...
Good solid teams like Burnley and Sheff Utd who were usually very tough to break down and you had to earn your win against them are shipping them now
Look at the 2 teams who have let the least goals in so far (Hammers and Villa) Yes , Villa , you read it right. 2 goals conceded. 5 teams already in double figures and only 4 games in , its gone crazy
It must be a combination of all the factors mentioned. VAR causing defenders to become more circumspect with tackles perhaps , attackers knowing any touch or intent and they go down like a Japanese sniper has done 'em. Handball a joke but havnt got the stats for how many pens have been awarded this season. Some goallie mistakes , good finishing as well it has to be said. Perhaps the attack minded intent from owners/fans/pundits to give entertainment is filtering in. Loss of stoic managers perhaps in the mold of Allardyce who would build on not conceding first
Shoulder shrugs...
Gone are the days of having your slowest and biggest players at the back. Look at the most successful teams of late and the high line and press which arguably was Guardiola's Barca that demonstrated how good it was. Managers want to build from the back because they want to keep the ball, however this is going to lead to mistakes but the positives always outweigh the bad. Sweeper keepers are also the same, they will make as many short passes as the rest of the outfield players, always keeping the ball which leads to goals in the end, of course there are going to be mistakes a long the way.
I'm all for it, it's entertaining, who wants to watch teams just hoof it from the back and play so deep? It's boring.
I'm all for it, it's entertaining, who wants to watch teams just hoof it from the back and play so deep? It's boring.
I totally agree now i watch more football from the sofa as a neutral, but when I was 15 and drunk on illegal alcohol watching Psycho ruin wingers from the terrace I'd probably disagree and want to go back to the 'good old days'.
Unless it becomes a long term trend I'll just put it down to a few crazy matches, I've lost count how many matches I've come away from complaining about a lack of goals.
I do think trying to pass it out from the back has produced a lot of silly goals though, one of the primary reasons for the goalkeeper kicking the ball long in the past was to allow teams to push up and relieve pressure. These days they have the entire Liverpool/Man City team camped in their own third pressing them and they still insist on trying to pass it out, it's silly if you ask me. I get that teams want to maintain possession but I think it's a balance between possession and 'risk' football, if you take risks mistakes and unexpected things can happen but some managers like Guardiola seem to be proud of having 80% possession even if they spend most of it passing the ball sideways at the halfway line or the edge of the box with hardly any threat (like Barcelona did in their late period under him) because they're too afraid to take risks. I find it just as boring as long ball, nothing pleased me more than that time Bayern demolished them playing direct no-nonsense football.
I do think trying to pass it out from the back has produced a lot of silly goals though, one of the primary reasons for the goalkeeper kicking the ball long in the past was to allow teams to push up and relieve pressure. These days they have the entire Liverpool/Man City team camped in their own third pressing them and they still insist on trying to pass it out, it's silly if you ask me. I get that teams want to maintain possession but I think it's a balance between possession and 'risk' football, if you take risks mistakes and unexpected things can happen but some managers like Guardiola seem to be proud of having 80% possession even if they spend most of it passing the ball sideways at the halfway line or the edge of the box with hardly any threat (like Barcelona did in their late period under him) because they're too afraid to take risks. I find it just as boring as long ball, nothing pleased me more than that time Bayern demolished them playing direct no-nonsense football.
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Footballers live in a bubble indeed, but doesn't the majority of them come from fairly poor backgrounds? So shouldn't they be more aware of the "real" life?
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I think that was true in the past. I don't know about now. But I guess Marcus Rashford would be a good case for your argument.
I think a big thing is tactics. I'd love to see a comparison between % possession and number of points won. My hunch is that the *very* good teams (Liverpool, City) can play possession foootball and win, and that for other teams they're as likely to win with 40% as with 60%.
We've seen Brighton and Sheffield United get promoted and do well by being very solid. Once establishing themselves they've tried to progress by playing more football, and have run into trouble. Brighton almost got relegated last year and Sheffield United look poor this time around, both having tried to play more expansively. Meanwhile Villa and West Ham, two teams that were in deep trouble last season, are taking a "win at any costs" approach, defending properly, and doing ok.
This belief that every side in the league needs to be playing out from the back and playing a high line is killing the mid table sides, and at times will come back to bite the top teams as well.
We've seen Brighton and Sheffield United get promoted and do well by being very solid. Once establishing themselves they've tried to progress by playing more football, and have run into trouble. Brighton almost got relegated last year and Sheffield United look poor this time around, both having tried to play more expansively. Meanwhile Villa and West Ham, two teams that were in deep trouble last season, are taking a "win at any costs" approach, defending properly, and doing ok.
This belief that every side in the league needs to be playing out from the back and playing a high line is killing the mid table sides, and at times will come back to bite the top teams as well.
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When Leicester won the league their possession % was very low. Wasn't it under 50%?
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Scholes doesn't come across as intelligent in his punditry. Him and Kane are both quite introverted and their voices don't help them. I wouldn't consider either of them "simple" though because of how they present themselves on TV. I would guess that more than half of the population are awkward and lost for words when they have a camera on them.
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Watch Spurs documentary all or nothing.
I already have.
Wouldn't surprise me at all! Win ball, get ball to Vardy / Mahrez, score goal. Simple but so much more effective for most teams than trying to pass out from the back.