Is upgrading a Router really that Important

[bitsNbobs]

You say that, but a jump from 1 to 2 meg makes a massive difference and is worth it imho.

He already gets as good as 1.2Mb another 800kb on the good/better of the 2 lines. For £50+ (i suspect some will recommend £150 devices) IMO is a pointless waste especially if the device he buys is ADSL only and his area may be FTTC before the end of the year. Call it in the middle at £100 and is that really worth it for only 800kb more and a device he may not even get 1 years use out of? If his area gets FTTC this year hes better off waiting for that for a few months and saving the money. Couple that with the fact there is no guarantee a new device would improve his speed even if its a SRA adjustable modem you can only push things so far before they are unreliable.

If he really must buy a device id suggest he looks for something like a used TPlink 8960 or Netgear 834GT on fleabay (both and others are SRA adjustable) and pay no more than £30ish. Spending big money on anything NEW that he may not use for long is silly.

PS @Jeramba if you mention the exchange you are connected to i/others can check when you are due FTTC, if you are interested in Virgins products that will need a postcode which if you are going to post on the forum DO NOT mention your house number.

 

[OLDPHART]

Can make a big difference in my experience.

I had a netgear (might even have been the same model as yours...), and had stability problems and all sorts that got worse as it got older. Switched to a Billion Bipack 7800n and had both better line speed and general stability. Also seems to deal much better with multiple connections, on the netgear if I was doing a download on one machine, you were pretty much buggered on any other for having decent responsiveness for browsing etc. On the Billion, you don't really know it's happening at all.

Also important if your line has been upgraded from ADSL2 to ADSL2+ for example to make sure your router supports the technology.

+1 also using a 7800n.

 

[Jeramba]

Much appreciated for all your help guys.

I'm not sure when Fibre will be in my area. My exchange is not that far as the crow flies. But the route the telephones lines take is prob about 4.5km. I live in a fairly rural area, So I assume it is unlikely any new cables will be layed for a while unless fibre can be carried over the telephone pylons ?

I know someone who gets about 20 MB through Sat broadband. I've heard that it can be unreliable and disconnect a fair bit though. May be an option though ?

I'm tempted to spend £100 on a new 7800 router and see if I get nearer to 2MB. But it seems a lot to spend. I still remember the days when broadband was first available but I only had a 56K Modem lol...

 

[Ev0]

Call it in the middle at £100 and is that really worth it for only 800kb more and a device he may not even get 1 years use out of?

To me yes it would be and is very much worth it. That 800kbps (66% increase)is the difference between being able to stream a lot of stuff and not. It's the difference of being able to not totally kill a connection when doing something more bandwidth intensive.

When you don't have much to work with tiny increases can make a big difference to the experience, more so than just looking at the headline numbers.

This is from my experiences over the last 18 months or so where it has been a revelation the last couple of months where I finally looked into whether a new router would be of any benefit, and it has been massively.

Being able to watch iplayer with no juddering whereas before it was unwatchable, now getting higher quality picture and sound on my NHL streaming subscription service has been worth it for me alone.

For the sake of £100 outlay which isn't much in the grand scheme of things for the benefit it brings its been worth it to me, especially considering how much time is now spent online for both work and pleasure. I'd have paid a lot more for a faster service if it would have been suitable like Satellite, but this worked out well.

My hope is that sometime in the next year or two either BT pull their finger out and upgrade our cab (new housing estate, lots of houses most of whom will be getting sub 1.5 meg, below the gov target of 2meg everywhere), or Virgin will extend once the roads are adopted.

Existing old houses that back onto our garden get Virgin which is so annoying, and one of the new developments next to ours have actually refused BT to install their crappy lines and are getting Virgin in from the start. So as we sit between the existing Virgin infrastructure and where they will be installing am really hoping we can get cabled up not holding my breath though.

 

[bitsNbobs]

Much appreciated for all your help guys.

I'm not sure when Fibre will be in my area. My exchange is not that far as the crow flies. But the route the telephones lines take is prob about 4.5km. I live in a fairly rural area, So I assume it is unlikely any new cables will be layed for a while unless fibre can be carried over the telephone pylons ?

I know someone who gets about 20 MB through Sat broadband. I've heard that it can be unreliable and disconnect a fair bit though. May be an option though ?

I'm tempted to spend £100 on a new 7800 router and see if I get nearer to 2MB. But it seems a lot to spend. I still remember the days when broadband was first available but I only had a 56K Modem lol...

What is your telephone exchange? Quite a few are due to be upgraded this year, distance you are from exchange is irrelevant with FTTC. With FTTC its the distance to the cabinet.

If you want reliability and something that does not disconnect tweaking a modem with your current stats will likely be a mistake, sure you will get a few extra kbps but it will not be as reliable. On a long and poor line typically you want around 6db to be safe and no less than 4db to stay half stable, tweaking by 2db will only get you another 300-500kbps, to get near to 2Mb or more you will be pushing things to 3db or lower and that will cause disconnections..... How many without knowing the line quality as a whole is impossible to say could be a couple per week or multiple times each day.

Go ahead and spend £100 (ish) if you want but do not expect miracles also remember any device you buy if its ADSL only and FTTC does come to your area that expenditure will be an utter waste if you upgrade as an ADSL only device wont work with FTTC.

 

[bitsNbobs]

To me yes it would be and is very much worth it. That 800kbps (66% increase)is the difference between being able to stream a lot of stuff and not. It's the difference of being able to not totally kill a connection when doing something more bandwidth intensive.

Not sure what streaming services you are referring to netflix and youtube will work with as little as 500kb. Iplayer stuff can be downloaded.

When you don't have much to work with tiny increases can make a big difference to the experience, more so than just looking at the headline numbers.

I agree but if his area is due FTTC within a few months whats the point in wasting money on a device you will not use once that comes along? It may be best if he mentions his exchange from that i or others can check when FTTC is due for him.

This is from my experiences over the last 18 months or so where it has been a revelation the last couple of months where I finally looked into whether a new router would be of any benefit, and it has been massively.

Being able to watch iplayer with no juddering whereas before it was unwatchable, now getting higher quality picture and sound on my NHL streaming subscription service has been worth it for me alone.

He will not be able to watch iplayer at least in HD as that requires 2800kbps
http://iplayerhelp.external.bbc.co.uk/tv/hd_connectedTV_bandwidth
there is no way in the world he will go from 1.2Mb to 2.8Mb with all the snr tweaking in the world.

Standard def requires MINIMUM 1.5Mbps
http://iplayerhelp.external.bbc.co.uk/tv/computer/speed_checker_online
and its possible he would not even be able to get that stable, without his net disconnecting regularly. His 63db is the limiting factor. iT ALSO STATES CLEARLY...."You’ll actually need a little more bandwidth than this to watch programmes on iPlayer. If you think your internet connection is slower than expected, please contact your internet service provider." so he will likely need even more, even if he manages it he is going to be pushing things right to their reliable limits.

For iplayer he would be far better downloading the programme rather than trying to stream it and getting annoyed by buffering or disconnections as he has tweaked the line to its limits.

For the sake of £100 outlay which isn't much in the grand scheme of things for the benefit it brings its been worth it to me, especially considering how much time is now spent online for both work and pleasure. I'd have paid a lot more for a faster service if it would have been suitable like Satellite, but this worked out well.

For some it can be helpful for him though i believe he would be lucky to even get to 2Mb reliably. Especially given his second line is only 500kbps, its possible his 1.2Mb line is near its limit already.

My hope is that sometime in the next year or two either BT pull their finger out and upgrade our cab (new housing estate, lots of houses most of whom will be getting sub 1.5 meg, below the gov target of 2meg everywhere), or Virgin will extend once the roads are adopted.

Both Virgin are planning a massive rollout looking at recent thinkbroadband news and BT have a raft of exchanges coming this year, you may be lucky.

Existing old houses that back onto our garden get Virgin which is so annoying, and one of the new developments next to ours have actually refused BT to install their crappy lines and are getting Virgin in from the start. So as we sit between the existing Virgin infrastructure and where they will be installing am really hoping we can get cabled up not holding my breath though.

Have a look at http://www.thinkbroadband.com/news/...mes-to-be-passed-by-virgin-media-network.html you never know soon maybe for you

 

[dmsims]

Frankly amazed at some of the nonsense comments on here

A change of router CAN make a massive difference (and there is no risk/cost with trying it)

Bear in mind that ADSL is banded (IP profiles) all you have to do is get yourself over the threshold for the next band e.g.

If you sync at 1984kbps you speed will be 1500kbps
sync at 2016kbps and it becomes 1750kbps

You also want to make sure all your wiring and connections are top notch e.g. no ring wire, good connections at the junction box (I have seen electrical screw terminals used ) and BT filtered faceplate

 

[bitsNbobs]

Frankly amazed at some of the nonsense comments on here

So am i lets sort it out eh

A change of router CAN make a massive difference (and there is no risk/cost with trying it)

Bear in mind that ADSL is banded (IP profiles) all you have to do is get yourself over the threshold for the next band e.g.

Easier said than done.

If you sync at 1984kbps you speed will be 1750kbps

No it will not. you would need to sync between 2016 kbps and 2240 kbps in which to have the IP profile set to 1750kbps and the BRAS profile set at 1792kbps this will then give him a typical throughput OR AS YOU PUT IT "SPEED" of 1.75Mbps.

YOUR SYNC example.....
A sync of between 1728 kbps and your mentioned 1984 kbps will result in a IP Profile set to 1500kbps and a BRAs of 1536kbps which will give a typical throughput of 1.50Mbps.......... Not exactly a "massive difference" on the 1.2Mbps he gets now. And even getting near that sync level with his line will be a challenge.

sync at 2016kbps and it becomes 2000kbps

Again NOPE
sync between 2016kbps and 2240kbps gives an IP Profile of 1750kbps a BRAS of 1792kbps and typical throughput of 1.75Mbps..... To reach this considering his speed is 1.2Mbps you are talking a bump upward of at least 3 profile levels...... 2 chances of that..... slim and sweet fanny adams.

SOURCE FOR ALL THIS IS AT.....
http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/IPprofile.htm


Oh and profiles and snr tweaking do not go hand in hand.

Even if it did which it does not thats not going to permanently increase a line profile.

The lower the SNR you set the higher the error count on a line will be which will first result in BRAS lowering the profile, quickly followed by the IP Profile. You are then back to square one and re-tinkering the SNR to match (or beat) the new profile.

 

[dmsims]

Apologies read the wrong column whilst typing - have corrected that now

Easy to make the router switch and gain yourself a LOT of bandwidth

I have permanently increased my speed from 1250Kbps to 3000kbps

 

[bledd]

Another issue is that when an outgoing call is made via the home phone the internet cuts out completely and has to be reset.

Sort this before doing anything. If the filter(s) aren't in the right place, then a £100,000 router won't make a blind bit of difference.

 

[bitsNbobs]

Apologies read the wrong column whilst typing - have corrected that now

Easy to make the router switch and gain yourself a LOT of bandwidth

I have permanently increased my speed from 1250Kbps to 3000kbps

To do that the line would have had to be vastly under performing or have an issue in the first place, or be capped. You gain about 500kb on average for every 1db SNR drop so there is no way you did that and did it reliably. If you have there was something wrong with the line in the first place.

If your SNR was 6db to start (typical for most people) you would have had to drop it below 3db (500kb for each 1db drop) to get even near that speed boost (infact likely under 2db). There is no way in hell any line is going to be stable at that type of SNR when the line attenuation is up in the 60s like the OPs is. It would be an error full, re-transmitting, take an age to load a web page, constantly disconnecting MESS. NO MATTER WHAT MODEM HE HAS.

Some lines and devices will indeed hold a 2db SNR but not when a line up in the mid 60s attenuation, its too big a gap to do reliably and gain silly amounts of speed. You can get away with it on a connection that normally manages 3Mb (or around 40db attenuation) or better (the lower the attenuation of your line the more you can push things) but down near 1Mb and mid 60s attenuation errr NO. NEVER gonna be reliable. AT best hes gonna boost his 1.2Mb to around 2Mb and that may even be a push.

Sort this before doing anything. If the filter(s) aren't in the right place, then a £100,000 router won't make a blind bit of difference.

I and a couple of others have said get the wiring fixed first. Does not make sense to by a nice fast Ferrari (new modem) and then feed it Diesel (rubbish wiring/connection/fuel) Some obviously think it is though, even though just fixing the wiring for a grand cost of basically ZERO may boost his speed on its own. Personally id sooner if needed spend money on the wiring first, rip out any old decayed junk extensions and redo them using a couple of pair from CAT5 or similar and if he really wants to push the boat out buy a couple of filtered faceplates and ditch all the dangly and possibly (atleast 1) broken filters.... Total cost for all that would still likely be under £50 and still cheaper than any all singing modem some have said to buy.

From there look at new routers and investigate any new services coming to his area.

 

[dmsims]

Yes there were wiring issues.

The point that you seem unable to understand/accept is that a different router makes a huge difference. The Billion 7800 series are the ultimate router in that respect.

Changing the SNR whilst maintaining a completely stable line allows you also to target those pesky thresholds. They also work with Riuterstats so you can make an informed decision about how far to push the line.

 

[bledd]

I've owned a 7800N and yes, they are awesome with the SNR tweak. But the OP needs to sort his issues out first.

Every router should be stable when making calls. There's a filtering issue which should be resolved before spending a penny.

The OP is annoyingly vague in his responses, ignoring all the good advice!

 

[Jeramba]

I've owned a 7800N and yes, they are awesome with the SNR tweak. But the OP needs to sort his issues out first.

Every router should be stable when making calls. There's a filtering issue which should be resolved before spending a penny.

The OP is annoyingly vague in his responses, ignoring all the good advice!

I don't think I'm ignoring all the good advice I'm very grateful for everyones' help. Just really deciding whether to buy a £100 Router or not.

What responses would you like me to be clearer on ?

 

[Bane]

While you ponder options and sort out wiring you might want to check firmware version installed on DG834Gv3.

v4.01.42 was released early/mid 2014, but I don't know if there's any line handling improvements included.

 

[bledd]

Does your broadband still drop when using the phone?

If so, sort the filters out.

If your internet drops when using the phone, either your filter is faulty (this is quite common) or you're not using a filter at all on that phone.

Before you go changing anything. Check everything is filtered up correctly, and that everything works.

If you've got loads of items plugged into the phone line(s)- (phones, fax machine [lol], sky box etc) . Unplug them all so it's as simple as possible.

ie, just have your router connected (through a filter). Now add one device back at a time, testing them out to see if it drops.

 

[bitsNbobs]

Yes there were wiring issues.

The point that you seem unable to understand/accept is that a different router makes a huge difference. The Billion 7800 series are the ultimate router in that respect.

Changing the SNR whilst maintaining a completely stable line allows you also to target those pesky thresholds. They also work with Riuterstats so you can make an informed decision about how far to push the line.

I do not accept it because for the OP and the quality of his lines it is not true, he even has what seems a faulty filter, it will not matter what router he shoves on the line until that is corrected and its a damn site cheaper to buy a new filter and tidy wires than it is to buy a router.

Routerstats wont help him either with poor wiring it will show a horrid wobbly db line before and after tweaking because there is a problem with the connection regardless.

Its ridiculous to even suggest he should spend serious cash on a new device when just fixing the wiring, let alone the filter in itself could give him a nice little boost (probably to the tune of 500kb-1Mb) for a cost of basically nothing. Replacing the router and not sorting the wiring first or the filter will do bugger all to improve his situation.

Likewise recommending one particular router just because it can tweak snr is a bit stupid, MANY if you can use Telnet will allow SNR tweaking in some fashion, you can buy a device with the same chipset as the Billion mentioned (a broadcomm) for half the cost. You are right on one thing and thats "Frankly amazed at some of the nonsense comments on here" Ironically you then followed it up with a post that had line profiles incorrect and now a post claiming a new router will make a huge difference with no evidence or any testing to see if the connection can be improved first before spending serious money on new hardware.

 

[dmsims]

To quote myself "In these situations wiring is critical, get an Openreach faceplate (where the filters are built in)."

I suggest you go and learn about this stuff before spouting any more rubbish

 

[Jeramba]

Ok I've checked the ring-wires. There are no ring wires or any wires connected to any terminals on the face plate. I get the impression that any wiring in the master socket apart from the faceplate should be left alone ?

I tried various combos of faceplates with my two lines. Basicially I swapped the face plates around and played with inserting the I-plate on both lines. Can quote upstream and downstream speeds if necessary.
I found that removing the I-plate form both lines increased the downstream speed by quite a bit and also one faceplate performed better than the other overall.

Is the I-plate necessary ? I mean it must have been installed for a reason.

I think I should buy an Openreach Faceplate, however I've heard that they can sometimes make the connection slower ?
It seems like the next relatively inexpensive step. I've heard Solwise is a good make ?

 

[bitsNbobs]

To quote myself "In these situations wiring is critical, get an Openreach faceplate (where the filters are built in)."

I suggest you go and learn about this stuff before spouting any more rubbish

Rubbish??? Like accusing someone of typing "nonsense" and then quoting incorrect DLM profiles Thats TWICE NOW you have resorted to insults. How about we stick to just trying to help the OP. With what we both think is the best advice.

Ok I've checked the ring-wires. There are no ring wires or any wires connected to any terminals on the face plate. I get the impression that any wiring in the master socket apart from the faceplate should be left alone ?

I tried various combos of faceplates with my two lines. Basicially I swapped the face plates around and played with inserting the I-plate on both lines. Can quote upstream and downstream speeds if necessary.
I found that removing the I-plate form both lines increased the downstream speed by quite a bit and also one faceplate performed better than the other overall.

Is the I-plate necessary ? I mean it must have been installed for a reason.

I think I should buy an Openreach Faceplate, however I've heard that they can sometimes make the connection slower ?
It seems like the next relatively inexpensive step. I've heard Solwise is a good make ?

Weird if anything a filtered faceplate should normally help things not make them worse, could you perhaps post an image of any wiring behind the front faceplate of the master socket?

Also be sure its the master sockets you are looking at. Are you sure you have not messed up and double filtered the ADSL or worse filtered it somewhere on the phone side of a ADSL filter. Plugging ADSL into a dangly filter on the phone side will hinder things. I thought from earlier posts you were using external filters and not a faceplate???? Which do you have????

Do you have any telephone extensions at all? If so there must be additional wiring involved.

Is the modem plugged into a extension socket or the master socket???

I think lots of images of your set up, wiring, etc if possible would be best.

This as a resource may also be of some use if you are unsure what you are doing....
http://www.rob-r.co.uk/other/UKphonecatwiring.htm