IT industry has changed....

[Mr^B]

I have to agree here, I have had three job interviews before that got ruined by the HR lady not knowing anything about IT.

They always end up asking "situations" ( competency interviews )questions, and trying to explain to them is like talking to a brick wall.

I have no idea why HR people even bother turning upto interviews.

Maybe they're seeing how you react to a customer that doesn't understand (or care) what the problem is - and how you deal with it?

We occasionally do that sort of role-play in interviews, have someone from HR ask the same question 3 different ways, I'll pretend to be frustrated myself and see how they react under the pressure. It can occasionally produce some strange results (and the occasional outburst too).

Just a few CV tips, drop the soundbites, especially the "more than 100% effort" because I always ask people who they're going to borrow effort from. Concentrate on conveying where you added value to the role, anything you achieved in measurable terms, if you lead a team, how many people was it, if you ran a datacentre what data/network outage stats did you achieve. SMART. etc.

 

[Solari]

To be honest, the top engineering boys where I work have lapsed CCNAs and have such a wealth of experience that they are probably close to CCIE standard. They just can't be bothered to do the exams.

It doesn't matter what you have on paper - it doesn't necessarily prove that you can troubleshoot in stressful situations, or configure something to requirements. I find pretty much all of the ICND material I did years ago redundant with what I do now - I don't remember CCNA teaching you OSPF, BGP, ISDN to a decent level (the debug output is nonsense without experience), VPNs, HSRP and a decent troubleshooting methodology to be honest.

HR are a pain in the bum in a lot of places and just look for buzz words in CVs.

I used to take examples of scripts I'd written to interviews to to prove my abilities as well. SO many people blagging things these days off the back of a certification (but I *will* upgrade to Sun Solaris 10 cert and do RHCE this year regardless).

 

[Dist]

Surely having qualifications would show potential employers that you are willing to learn new things. Which cant be a bad thing i wouldnt have thought. Even if some things like CCNA arnt worth a great deal, its better then nothing, and if its as easy as some of you are making it out to be, then you can do the learning and exams along side your day to day job.

 

[dowie]

I'm sure there are plenty of examples of good experienced people with no quals and complete numpties with quals etc...

But the optimum candidate will have a mixture of both - you might be well above XYZ level but to a random person hiring you are still an unknown quantity - at least a qualification allows them to tick certain boxes for HR.

As for recruiters - they might be annoying but it is their job to sell you and, as long as they are good, then(within reason) listen to what they say - obviously they will over exagerate about the job to you but if you're repeatedly getting told that you ought to have XYZ for ABC role then maybe you should as they are the ones filling these slots with candidates. It might be largely irrelevant but if it helps the HR tick a box and helps the recruiter close a deal then who cares.

 

[Fr0dders]

which I'm put off by a little - 20 years in the industry and you've not moved into management doesn't speak well for ambition)

i dont agree with that at all

if i wanted to be pencil pusher, and hire n fire, fill out reviews, attend management meetings and produce flip charts then i'll move into management

i dont see why you have to move away from a technical role to a man management role ? i know theres shed loads more money being in management, but frankly i wouldnt have it that way. Im happiest taking a server apart, or tearing my hair out working why stuff doesnt work.

Not attending reviews. If you're wanting to stay in a technical role then 3rd line engineer isnt a bad place to be ?


As for the OP. Your chances of hire depend entirely upon the employer. The great thing about IT is there are so many employers out there. I got my first job in IT with no experience and qualifactions. I attended interviews for my next job, where interviewers questionned my lack of qualifications or my CV just got plain ignored, no doubt due to lack of qualifiactions. Didnt stop it taking more than a month or two to find a job that i enjoy though. That employer didnt mind i didnt have many qualifications, and was quite happy with the experience i had

You're best off finding one such employer out there. Theres plenty of them out there so just keep sending CVs

 

[Fr0dders]

Surely having qualifications would show potential employers that you are willing to learn new things.

as ive said, it depends entirely upon the person hiring. Ive got friends in the industry who recruit, one of them is so fed up hiring staff with MCSE and CCNA etc.. who cant actually do the job, he now actively seeks staff with proven experience and doesnt give a damn about qualifications. But then, as i said in my other post, ive been interviewed by people for whom qualifications (or lack of them) was an issue for them thus my CV just got binned.

 

[Moley]

Just to clarify - the post I just left isn't on the CV. I was perm not contractor but am seriously thinking of going back to contracting.

 

[bigredshark]

i dont agree with that at all

if i wanted to be pencil pusher, and hire n fire, fill out reviews, attend management meetings and produce flip charts then i'll move into management

i dont see why you have to move away from a technical role to a man management role ? i know theres shed loads more money being in management, but frankly i wouldnt have it that way. Im happiest taking a server apart, or tearing my hair out working why stuff doesnt work.

Not attending reviews. If you're wanting to stay in a technical role then 3rd line engineer isnt a bad place to be ?

Well, each to their own. I went into the industry being technically brilliant but not having much talent for managing projects or such. I'm in my mid twenties now and I've found my way to an Infrastructure Architect position, as such third line engineers work for me basically. I'm still hands on technical when I want to be but ripping apart servers personally lost it's appeal a while back, I moved into the design side and as a result had to sharpen my management skills quite suddenly but it's done a lot of good.

If I had 20 years experience I wouldn't want to be doing engineering or design still, I'd be looking for at least a technical manager position. Staying in engineering alone is fine if that suits you but to me thats pretty boring and I have to say I dislike CVs that show somebody has done that for 10 years or so - don't they want to do something more?? There's also the money of course, engineers have a fairly set ceiling when it comes to pay.

I'm not saying my opinion is universal, I'm young and my job is my job, it's highly stressful and I do it because it pays well not because I love it (I enjoy the technical challenge sure but I don't enjoy 60 hour weeks).

 

[Solari]

I would find telling people what to build frustrating. Maybe it's just me, but being in management I'm sure my technical skills would erode, and I would find the prospect of knowing what could be done, but not how to do it, extremely annoying.

 

[bigredshark]

I would find telling people what to build frustrating. Maybe it's just me, but being in management I'm sure my technical skills would erode, and I would find the prospect of knowing what could be done, but not how to do it, extremely annoying.

It depends on the company I guess, I'm not really clear whether I'm management or not where I am. I'm one of the top three technical people and I report to the technical director but I don't manage a huge team (I get resource from other teams for projects etc).

I spend most of my time on design work for new systems and upgrades and hence my technical skills are still very sharp, but when it comes to installations I tend to direct mostly as I don't really enjoy racking servers or configuring mail clusters - it all gets a bit repetitive in the end. The exception is config work on the core routers which I prefer to do personally.

Where I am is probably a good balance for now. I don't want to do direct man management as I'm well aware I'm not suited to it (intolerant of mistakes and slightly grumpy basically) but I expect I'll end up as a technical director in a few years.

EDIT: Or a more direct answer is...you'd find telling people to build things frustrating - but more or less frustrating than being told to build things when you know there's a better way to do it?

 

[Dave M]

I have to say I dislike CVs that show somebody has done that for 10 years or so - don't they want to do something more??

I wouldn't be surprised if thinking like that contributed to the OP losing his job, sometimes doing your job isn't enough - you have to want it.

That he says later on he found stuff in the MCSE he couldn't do is indicative that perhaps he took his foot off the gas - I could have mis-read it but then so could his boss.

Qual's like MCSE do have one thing going for them, they keep you on your toes if your going to keep them up to date - in theory an engineer should have his own motivation to keep pushing but sometimes a little external pressure doesn't hurt.

 

[bigredshark]

I wouldn't be surprised if thinking like that contributed to the OP losing his job, sometimes doing your job isn't enough - you have to want it.

That he says later on he found stuff in the MCSE he couldn't do is indicative that perhaps he took his foot off the gas - I could have mis-read it but then so could his boss.

Qual's like MCSE do have one thing going for them, they keep you on your toes if your going to keep them up to date - in theory an engineer should have his own motivation to keep pushing but sometimes a little external pressure doesn't hurt.

Yeah, it's a fine line though, I got a few verbal warnings for 'trying to change the world' when I first moved up. You've got to show initiative and that you want it but once you've warned your boss in writing the email system is in need of a serious upgrade once, it's time to back off.

 

[Fr0dders]

Well, each to their own. I went into the industry being technically brilliant but not having much talent for managing projects or such. I'm in my mid twenties now and I've found my way to an Infrastructure Architect position, as such third line engineers work for me basically. I'm still hands on technical when I want to be but ripping apart servers personally lost it's appeal a while back, I moved into the design side and as a result had to sharpen my management skills quite suddenly but it's done a lot of good.

To be honest, im not quite sure what to progress onto. I work for a NHS contractor at the minute, doing systems support. Basically supporting anything and everything at the practice IT wise they want to pay us to look after. Its great because it means i get to mess with Active Directory / Exchange / Networking / VPNs / etc.. but its GP practices so in the real world its probably SME equivalent. Single to dual server setups with < 50 users.

I'd like to progress beyond this, but honestly dont know where, But know wherever i do, i want something technical as im not the sort of person to inspire my team. Plus like i said, i really dont want to be doing performance reviews, form filling out etc..

I'm the sort of person with good problem solving skills and a reputation for knowing a lot, and what i dont know, ill learn sort of thing. So best suited to probably some kind of senior network support or something ? any recommendations ?

 

[bigredshark]

To be honest, im not quite sure what to progress onto. I work for a NHS contractor at the minute, doing systems support. Basically supporting anything and everything at the practice IT wise they want to pay us to look after. Its great because it means i get to mess with Active Directory / Exchange / Networking / VPNs / etc.. but its GP practices so in the real world its probably SME equivalent. Single to dual server setups with < 50 users.

I'd like to progress beyond this, but honestly dont know where, But know wherever i do, i want something technical as im not the sort of person to inspire my team. Plus like i said, i really dont want to be doing performance reviews, form filling out etc..

I'm the sort of person with good problem solving skills and a reputation for knowing a lot, and what i dont know, ill learn sort of thing. So best suited to probably some kind of senior network support or something ? any recommendations ?

Sounds a lot like my skill set to be honest, if you're totally opposed to the idea of managing people then the best route long term is probably into a senior engineering role and then into design work.

It means you'll stay in a technical role and always have the opportunity to be hands on but you take on more responsibility. Downside is you really need to learn to manage projects at least a little in most design roles.

Of course the big upside is banks will pay £100k+ for infrastructure architects if they're good enough and contractors will make more still...

The keys in my opinion are to avoid spending too much time in support, you can only go so far and there are some good support positions around but they are few and far between and most people get pushed into team leader roles in the end if they want promotion.

Also useful is being able to work with servers and networks is priceless to a lot of companies because it means they can employ one person instead of two. CCIEs get paid well, CCIEs who know Exchange inside out are rarer and get paid more - so don't drop one side of your knowledge to concentrate on the other if you can help it.

 

[^^Gord^^]

Ah, GEM! That was a blast from the past.

I've collected a number of certification over the years and always make sure I keep them current. I've learnt little from doing the actual certification but they are (as some have already said) a tickbox needed to get past agencies or the HR dept. It's understandable as a lot of people work or want to work in IT so most jobs get a lot of people applying, you need some criteria to filter them down.

Once you start to get interviews you will also find that most companies have now got there own tests as well. Some are just a few pages of multi-choice questions with others doing practical tests. This has been brought in to weed out the 'paper' certified people (I once saw a CCNP certified person unable to configure a simple router and switch setup!).

 

[Bakedgoods]

I don't understand that Gord, doesn't the CCNP entail a practical exam as well?

I'm only studying my CCNA part-time at college and we're doing basic router configuration and it's early days :\

 

[HEADRAT]

This is why it's important to get training/qualifications while you're with an employer, they will obviously balk about the time/expense but you need to do it for your own development.

I once interviewed a CCIE who nearly puked when I asked him to "password recover" a Cisco router

 

[HEADRAT]

Of course the big upside is banks will pay £100k+ for infrastructure architects if they're good enough and contractors will make more still...

Never work for a bank, a friend of mine worked for an investment bank in the City and was on £120K a year!! His life was a misery, compared to what the bankers earned he was the "tea boy" and was pretty much treated with contempt. The "Network Guys" were always seen as the the "problem" when the network went down, there was just no way it could be down even for a second or it cost ££££

There is just no way I'd work in this environment.

 

[Fr0dders]

Never work for a bank, a friend of mine worked for an investment bank in the City and was on £120K a year!! His life was a misery, compared to what the bankers earned he was the "tea boy" and was pretty much treated with contempt. The "Network Guys" were always seen as the the "problem" when the network went down, there was just no way it could be down even for a second or it cost ££££

There is just no way I'd work in this environment.

id happily take that sort of pressure for 120k a year

You'll find that your regarded as the problem, rather than the network itself, in most support roles anyway.

 

[Fr0dders]

Sounds a lot like my skill set to be honest, if you're totally opposed to the idea of managing people then the best route long term is probably into a senior engineering role and then into design work.

....

The keys in my opinion are to avoid spending too much time in support, you can only go so far and there are some good support positions around but they are few and far between and most people get pushed into team leader roles in the end if they want promotion.

I've kind of worked that out too. Whenever i've been looking round at support roles, theres very little in the way of promotions etc.. You can go up a pay grade or two, maybe become senior. But theses not much prospect in support, unless like you say you go into management

Just trying to work out where my next step will be, because like you say, i dont want to get tied down in support forever.